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Giants and Gods/Goddesses in Norse belief

Discussion in 'Heathenry DIR' started by Wild Fox, May 27, 2020.

  1. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    You could have fooled me there with all your references to Hindu deities :)
    No reasons for excusions.
    I don´t think Diti is an Earth Goddess at all. As "mother of both the Marutas and the Asuras (Daityas) with the sage Kashyapa" - this "earth goddess claim" is highly inconsistens as the Earth logically cannot be the "mother = creater of all the other cosmic realms or divine forces.

    IMO Diti represent the very physical forming and creation in the Universe, which is why this personified deity represent the "evil qualities" compared to the spiritual ones - which is a dualistic nonsense in itself.
     
  2. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    What do you mean, Native? Yes, I am strong atheist but still an orthodox Hindu. Was a theist half my life, or you can say undecided. So why would not I know Hindu deities. Atheism in Hinduism is as old as Hinduism and a part of it. Hindu atheism - Wikipedia

    You are right to correct me. As you know I quoted from Wikipedia. They have it wrong there. All daughters of Daksha were mothers and wives. Only two were Goddesses. Aditi among Indo-Aryans because she gave birth to Gods, and Sati because she was married to Lord Shiva in later Puranic Hinduism.

    Lastly Diti is not evil personified. She was impatient, envious of her sister, but gave birth to Gods - the Marutas. Secondly, some Asuras and Daityas were great devotees of Gods and are greatly respected in Hinduism (Mahabali, Prahlad). Actually, in the next four-Yuga cycle starting after this Kaliyuga, 426,000 years from now. Asura Mahabali will be the Indra (which is an elective position). Well, it takes time to understand the intricacies of Hinduism.

    One strange thing. Avesta mentions River Daitya as a good river. Zoroaster was born somewhere near it. Daityas are considered sons of Diti. I think I have read that there is a connection between D and wetness. There are rivers in Europe with names starting with D, some of them major (Dnieper, Don, Danube, Dneister, Dvina, etc.)
     
    #22 Aupmanyav, Jun 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  3. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Yeah, Milky Way mythology is cross-cultural, also as a river to be crossed to reach heaven, guarded by celestial dogs Kérberos, Cerberus, Garmr, Sarama in Hinduism and in Zoroastrianism, "spâna pəšu.pâna" (Bridge Protecting Dogs)

    Milky way is the celestial river Aredvi Sura Anahita in Zoroastrianism and Saraswati in Hinduism.
     
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  4. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    The Milky Way mythology is cross cultural?

    There is an underworld (hel) in Norse mythology no 'heaven', there is no river to be crossed that is associated with Garmr, nor is the milky way attested in Germanic texts.

    Cerberus guards the gates of the underworld (Hades) not of 'heaven', Cerberus like Garmr would be better characterised as chthonic not celestial. Kerberos/Cerberus/ Ce′rberus are the same, they refer to the same mythical being.

    I am not Hindu but wasn't Samara the Hindu wolf/dog of the gods that helped the Devas recover cows stolen by demons? How is that associated with the milky way/heaven/a river?
     
  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Sarama, Deva Shuni (female dog of the Gods).
    She is described as the mother of all dogs, in particular of the two four-eyed brindle dogs of the god Yama, and dogs are given the matronymic Sarameya ("offspring of Sarama"). This is very close to the Zoroastrian description of the Bridge Guarding Dogs who are described as variegated.
    Yeah, when the sun was stolen by Panis, tribal competitors of Aryans, Indra asked Sarama to help him in finding the sun. When Sarama went to Panis, they gave her milk to drink. The Panis addressed Sarama as sister and asked her to share their booties. Sarma refused that. When Sarama came back to Indra, he somehow came to know of this and kicked Sarama. Sarama vomited the milk and that is the Milky Way galaxy that we see in the sky.
    Am not impressed by the suggestions of MaxMuller, Aurobindo or Wendy Doniger.
    Sarama - Wikipedia for details.
     
  6. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    It's not my area, so thanks for the clarification but best not to incorporate mythologies you are not familiar with in your claim of cross cultural beliefs.
     
  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Kerberos did help Herakles in finding the cows as Sarama did in RigVeda for Indra. And Zoroastrians do have the variegated dogs at the Chinvat Bridge. What can I do if the mythologies say that. I do not think I am mixing any two mythologies other than these two.
    There are theories about similarity of Fenrir and Zoroastrian Ahriman. Fenrir - Wikipedia
     
  8. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    Wikipedia is not a particularly good source.

    In his twelfth and final labour Eurystheus ordered Hercules to go to Hades and kidnap Cerberus. Hercules by sheer force managed to overpower Cerberus and Hercules then presented Cerberus to Eurystheus. When Eurytheus saw the Cerberus he was frightened and begged Hercules to return the beast to the Underworld and exchange the Eurytheus would release Hercules from his labors. Cerberus was returned safely to Hades, where he resumed guarding the gateway to the Underworld. End of myth.

    For any Greek mythology I suggest Theoi.com

    CERBERUS (Kerberos) - Three-Headed Hound of Hades of Greek Mythology
    What were the 12 Labors of Hercules? -

    The connection between Cerberus, Garmr and Fenris is that they can all be considered chthonic .
     
  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    You see, the Indo-European migration started from Pontic steppes perhaps before 4,000 BCE. The Eastern movement was slower, around 3,000 BCE to Oxus valley and even later to Sogdiana, Merv, Balkh, Herat. Indo-Aryans did not reach India in numbers before 2,000 BCE. So there is a difference of 2,000 years and a distance of a few thousand miles between Europe and India. The mythologies are bound to be a bit different. It is Herakles' 10th labor which has a counterpart in RigVeda.
     
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  10. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    I dont really understand your point? Neither Cerberus or his brother Orthus 'helped' Hercules.They were simply obstacles/players in the completion of his labours.

    Religious activity diverged greatly in the period post migration of the Yamnaya horizon/Yamna Culture . For sure there are correlations in basic stories and shared myth throughout the Indo-European speaking decendents of the PIE peoples, but there is also great divergence.

    The 10th labour of Herakles/Hercules, they same mythic being, does not incorporate Cerberus but rather his brother, Orthus, who was killed by Hercules. For sure cattle are involved but they were inevitably brought to Eurystheus, who sacrificed the herd to Hera.The central myth of Hercules is his strength and ability overcome adversity.

    Neither the 10th or 12the labour of Hercules supports your tenent that Cerberus, Orthus, Fenrir or Garmr can be considered celestial or in any way share a commonality with the Vedic myth of Sarama.
     
    #30 Hildeburh, Jul 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  11. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Hildebruh, I care fully went through the mythologies of Herakles and Kerberos, and truly there is not much to connect them with the Vedic mythology. The only point I find common is Herakles bringing the cows and Kerberos vomiting when he came out in sunlight. Therefore, I will not try to connect the two mythologies (completely, though there may be a very thin connection). Thanks for correcting me. I was following some author who connected these two.
     
  12. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    Don't sweat it, I've been a neopagan for many moons and have been schooled by many, endless learning goes with the path. I respect you and have enjoyed our discussion.
     
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  13. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    All this depends on the actual interpreter skills of connecting the factual myth to the factual realms mentioned in a myth.
    As a "god" Herculus of course resides in the heavens and all tellings shal be connected to the heavenly realms and motions and not to anything which happen on the Earth in a specific geographic location.

    As such, it shouldn´t be difficult to find comparative deities in other cultures since the story is founded in astronomical facts and motions which are common for all humans. All 12 laybours of Hercules takes place in the heaven as descriptions of some star constellations (mentioned as both animal and human figures) and their daily and annual motions.

    And the very same goes for the imagery and (apparently) motion of he Milky Way contours which is closely connected to the cultural Stories of Creation and the prime deities.

    Quote from - Hercules - Wikipedia
    Birth and early life
    Although he was seen as the champion of the weak and a great protector, Hercules' personal problems started at birth. Hera sent two witches to prevent the birth, but they were tricked by one of Alcmene's servants and sent to another room. Hera then sent serpents to kill him in his cradle, but Hercules strangled them both. In one version of the myth, Alcmene abandoned her baby in the woods in order to protect him from Hera's wrath, but he was found by the goddess Athena who brought him to Hera, claiming he was an orphan child left in the woods who needed nourishment. Hera suckled Hercules at her own breast until the infant bit her nipple, at which point she pushed him away, spilling her milk across the night sky and so forming the Milky Way. She then gave the infant back to Athena and told her to take care of the baby herself. In feeding the child from her own breast, the goddess inadvertently imbued him with further strength and power".

    This is exactly why we have the mythical term of a "Mother Goddess" in all cultures, NOT an Earthly Goddess as most scholars interpret and what you can read of in all encyclopedias, but a Galactic Goddess.

    As explained above: It deals with the celestial realms, imageries and motions - all explained to remenber this as told in a human story telling method which connects the entire celestial scenario - with reference to Herculus and his 12 month motions of the year.

    So: In order to understand ancient myths, one should at the least have astronomical knowledge and if it deals with the very creation itself, one also should have cosmological skills as the creation stories deals with the very formation of the Milky Way itself and everything in our galaxy.

    Links:
    Creation myth - Wikipedia
    List of creation myths - Wikipedia
     
    #33 Native, Jul 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  14. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    You have a point there. Search for cows was in the tenth labor. The two-month long Arctic started in October/November (assuming, as one researcher in India did, that the IE original home was in the Arctic region, from where they were pushed south by the ice-age). Vedas too mention the retrieval of cows by India. Avesta mentions a flood by snow. Vedas and Avesta had priests who completed their sacrificial cycle in nine or ten months (Navagwahas, Dashagwahas). And Old Roman calendar had 304 days and 10 months. That is when you have Halloween. Not difficult to see connections.
     
  15. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    Native said:
    As such, it shouldn´t be difficult to find comparative deities in other cultures since the story is founded in astronomical facts and motions which are common for all humans. All 12 laybours of Hercules takes place in the heaven as descriptions of some star constellations (mentioned as both animal and human figures) and their daily and annual motions.
    --------------
    Aupmanyav,
    I´m afraid you´ve misunderstood my points. Your contents reveals what I call "a typical misconception of ancient myths" where scholars have huge problems of placing a myth in it´s correct realms, thus mixing celestial myths with "things happend on the Earth".

    As Herculus is a god or semi-god, this story of course takes place in the (night) Sky where the very Star Constellation of Hercules confirms the celestial location and story. On the opposite location in the Star Map, you have the Star Constellation of Taurus- both residing on the northern hemisphere. As the star constellations seemingly revolve around the celestial pole star, the story goes that "Hercules are chasing the Bull" and the "Herculus´10th labour" deals with this astronomical knowledge.

    Quote from - The 10th Labor of Hercules: the Cattle of Geryon
    "Eurystheus ordered Hercules to retrieve the cattle of Geryon. Geryon was a giant with three heads and one body. (# 1) Geryon lived on the island of Erytheia. (# 2) When Hercules reached the island of Erytheia, he was met by the two-headed dog, Orthus."
    ---------------
    Ad 1: Not an Earthly creature do you think? And what about the two-headed dog?

    Ad 2: Erytheia is a garden in which golden apples grow. Does real golden apples grow on the Earth? The Giant Gerion with the three heads lives in Erytheia. What is Erytheia?

    What then are the scholarly interpretation of this?:

    "Erytheia or Erythia (Ancient Greek: Ἐρυθεία) ("the red one"), part of Greek mythology, is one of the three Hesperides. The name was applied to the island close to the coast of southern Hispania, that was the site of the original Punic colony of Gadeira.Pliny's Natural History records of the island of Gades: "On the side which looks towards Spain, at about 100 paces distance, is another long island, three miles wide, on which the original city of Gades stood. By Ephorus and Philistides it is called Erythia, by Timæus and Silenus Aphrodisias, and by the natives the Isle of Juno." The island was the seat of Geryon, who was overcome by Heracles".

    Me: It´s all a mixed up nonsens because the scholars in question have no mythical, astronomical and cosmological insights at all when they interpret ancient myths.

    They accept without any critical and logical questions the celestial mythical contexts to be interpreted as Earthly matters and in this case they mislocate the very celestial Erytheia = the Milky Way galaxy = an "Island in the Sky", to be located all around in the Mediterranean Sea area.

    Re-interpretation of your reply:
    "The two-month long Arctic started in October/November (assuming, as one researcher in India did, that the IE original home was in the Arctic region, from where they were pushed south by the ice-age). Vedas too mention the retrieval of cows by India".

    Me: As said above the Hercules myth doesn´t deal with Earthly matters.

    You: "Avesta mentions a flood by snow".

    Me: Please give me a link to this text. I think this deals with a mythical colarly description of the whitish Milky Way band. Try to read it in this Milky Way context and tell me what you think.

    Regards
    Native

    Edit: I forgot to compare my explanations here to the OP "beliefs in Norse Mythology", but I can elaborate on this later.
     
    #35 Native, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  16. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    If holdning onto the celestial explanations of ancient myths, Hercules responds to the Norse myth of Loki and the Herculus star constellation and Thor responds to the star constellation of Orion, "The Hunter", where the three "belt stars" represents Thor´s "belt of strenght". In his hand he holds an axe, modernly interpreted as "a hammer".

    This Orion star figure
    also connects to the story of Thor "dressed in womans dress" as this starry figure also can be interpreted as a female figure with it´s slim waist.

    As in the Hercules story when fighting the giant, Gerion, Thor also frequently fights the giants and if/as Thor represent the Orion constellation, the giant figure is, the nearby Orion, large structure of the Milky Way as illustrated here.

    Regarding the "two-headded dog" in the Hercules myth, this may be the "Fenris Wolf" in the Norse Mythology who is lenked "by the gods" to the "world three" i.e. to the Earth celestial pole on the northern hemisphere. The very telling of "Fenrir getting loose" deals with the fact that the Earth celestial pole axis tilt of 21,5 degree is wandering a full celestial circle with1 degree every 71,6 years in all, a time period of 25.776 years, called the precessional motion in the Sky.

    As such, the Fenris story has nothing to do with Ragnarok as "the end of the world", but of of a changing celestial motion in the night Sky, just like "Ragnarok" only means Ragna = Gods/Goddesses and Rok = motions/changes. This entire scenario motion in the night Sky is very often interpreted as "the gods fighting each others", but again, this interpretation is the result of sholars lacking the basic mythical, astronomical and cosmological insights.

    Further Norse Myth star constellation explanations here. (They are not mine)
     
    #36 Native, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  17. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    AVESTA: VENDIDAD (English): Fargard 2: Yima (Jamshed) and the deluge.

    Orion for Vedics was Prajapati, the supreme entity. We go by the 'Hunter' myth. Around 2,500 BCE, Orion (Prajapati) was considered to be leaning towards Aldebaran (Revati), who was considered his daughter. Basically, the sun did not arise at that time on the day of vernal equinox in Orion, but had moved towards Aldebaran. This was considered incestous. Worship of Prajapati/Brahma was stopped. Rudra was so enraged that he pierced one of Prajapatis head with an arrow (he had five, so not a great loss). Orion was also seen as a deer with an arrow in his head, and called (Mrigashiras - the head of the deer). By 2,000 BCE, the Vedic calendar was changed to accommodate this precession of equinox, and the year beginning was made to tie with sun rising in Pleiades. This required changing the beginning of the year by one month. Vedics made three such changes, if not four, over a period of some 6-8,000 years..
     
    #37 Aupmanyav, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  18. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    How does Hercules 'respond' to the Norse myth of Loki? For that matter how does Hercules correspond (not 'respond') to Orion? Orion, son of Poseidon, in Greek mythology was a talented huntsman placed among the stars by Zeus or perhaps Artemis. The myth of Orion is not connected to the myth of Hercules nor can Orion be conflated with Thor.

    This is Greek mythology 101. I suggest reading the myths:
    ORION - Boeotian Giant of Greek Mythology

    If you are suggesting that the constellation Orion is considered an archetypal hunter, fitting Thor to this archetype is not based on Norse mythology but on your UPG. What is your Norse source for equating Thors belt of strength with Orions belt? What is the point of the statement, "In his hand he holds an axe, modernly interpreted as "a hammer"? As per his mythology Orion held an unbreakable bronze, how does this relate to either Thor or Hercules?

    No it doesn't, how is this figure of Orion with his bronze club, lion’s skin, girdle and sword in any way related to the story of Thor dressed as a woman in Þrymskviða? Slim waist, seriously is that all you've got? Simply stating that something is true doesn't make it so.



    The ancient Greeks didn't conflate Orion the hunter with Hercules nor did the Norse with Thor. You are conflating mythologies from different times and cultures, the parallels you a drawing are your UPG, don't present them as fact by using unrelated images.

    UPG. Not in any way related to Norse mythology. "Lenked by the gods to the world three"? Explain this statement, it makes no sense.

    The role of Fenris in Ragnarok is clear in Norse mythology and your interpretation is not supported by either existing mythological literature or academic interpretation. Ragnarok or Ragnarokr from Old Norse ragna which is genitive of rögn meaning gods and rök means destined or end" or rökr means"twilight. Rok or rokr are not etymologically linked to motion/change.
     
  19. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    Native said:
    You: "Avesta mentions a flood by snow".
    Me: Please give me a link to this text. I think this deals with a mythical colarly description of the whitish Milky Way band. Try to read it in this Milky Way context and tell me what you think.
    Quote from the link:
    “Second part (21 to the end). On the approach of a dire winter, which is to destroy every living creature, Yima, being advised by Ahura, builds a Vara to keep there the finest representatives of every kind of animals and plants, and they live there a life of perfect happiness”.

    Me: IMO this deals with factual advice of agricultural growth and animal breeding in general, but it also can be a part of the Creation Story, according to the following citation.

    And:
    “It is difficult not to acknowledge in the latter legend a Zoroastrian adaptation of the deluge, whether it was borrowed from the Bible or from the Chaldaean mythology. The similitude is so striking that it did not escape the Moslems, and Macoudi states that certain authors place the date of the deluge in the time of Jamshed.

    There are essential and necessary differences between the two legends, the chief one being that in the monotheistic narration the deluge is sent as a punishment from God, whereas in the dualistic version it is a plague from the Daevas: but the core of the two legends is the same: the hero in both is a righteous man who, forewarned by God, builds a refuge to receive choice specimens of mankind) intended some day to replace an imperfect humanity, destroyed by a universal calamity”.

    Me: And here we have the “Flood Myth”, which occurs in cultures all over the World.

    You mentioned earlier that: "Avesta mentions a flood by snow".

    I don´t know if you have mixed the "winter" in the first sentense with the Flood Myth in the second sentense, but if you have you´re IMO on a wrong interpretative track.

    Flood Myths is specifically connected to the whitish band of the Milky Way wich in several cultures was symbolized as a "River in the Sky". This whitish band is observable all around the Earth and symbolically speaking it "runs all around the Earth" but UP in the (night) Sky and not ON the Earth.

    This celestial scenario is the very cause of the global "Flood Myths". Humans all over the world have simply observed the same celestial imagery.

    As said several times: If scholars have no mythical, astronomical or cosmological insights, they have no other options but to interpret ancient celestial matters as geological facts.
     
  20. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    I really don´t care who placed the Orion constellation in the night Sky as I´m primarily working with the astronomical images in the first hand and see if they fit the mythical stories and it´s connected attributes and here, the Orion image shows a hunter in general, sometimes depicted with an axe and sometimes with a bow and arrow. It also shows a femalish looking figure with a slim waiste with the three belt stars, as said before.

    If you´re having troubles in connecting the Orion hunter to Thor who hunts giant figures in the Sky, it´s not my problem but yours.
    How do you know if "the club of the Orion constellation is of bronze"? How can you accept and state something like that yourself?

    And how would you interpret the story of Thor dressed as a woman in Þrymskviða? Do you think he was a transvestite or what? This prominent testosteron fighter factually dressed as a woman? I don´t think so. (Even if this certainly would have scared the living daylight out of the giants :) ) I´ll STILL hold onto my natural explanation of Thor as Orion.
    In my world this isn´t "conflations" but starry COMPARISONS beyond cultural references. Besides this, star constellations and their looks are of course not time or culture dependent as such.
    Well, if you´ve read and understood the text, you wouldn´t need further explanations, would you?

    I said:
    Regarding the "two-headded dog" in the Hercules myth, this may be the "Fenris Wolf" in the Norse Mythology who is lenked "by the gods" to the "world three" i.e. to the Earth celestial (axis) pole on the northern hemisphere.

    All star constellations revolves around this celestial axis and in this sense they all are "lenked" to this. This is myths speaking of factual astronomical matters and motion and not just intellectual fable heritage..
    The ENTIRE story of RAGNAROK deals with the very MOTION of CHANGE via MOVING from one stage to another. Maybe you should read the myth in this context in order to get the interpretations and etymological meanings correct?

    I really don´t care if my interpretations are "not supported by either existing mythological literature or academic interpretation" because:

    If scholars, authors, laymen and readers don´t have the mythical, astronomical and cosmological insights, they really don´t understand the ancient myths at all.

    So you cannot automatically find any "existing mythological literature or academic interpretation" which confirm someone as me who really have these new and combined insights and uses these in my perceptions and explanations.

    I´ve no doubts that your intellectual skills are just fine, but it would be very nice if you leave your automatic oppositional attitude and take in the natural explanations from real observations.

    Regards
    Native
     
    #40 Native, Jul 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
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