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Giants and Gods/Goddesses in Norse belief

Discussion in 'Heathenry DIR' started by Wild Fox, May 27, 2020.

  1. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    You could have fooled me there with all your references to Hindu deities :)
    No reasons for excusions.
    I don´t think Diti is an Earth Goddess at all. As "mother of both the Marutas and the Asuras (Daityas) with the sage Kashyapa" - this "earth goddess claim" is highly inconsistens as the Earth logically cannot be the "mother = creater of all the other cosmic realms or divine forces.

    IMO Diti represent the very physical forming and creation in the Universe, which is why this personified deity represent the "evil qualities" compared to the spiritual ones - which is a dualistic nonsense in itself.
     
  2. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    What do you mean, Native? Yes, I am strong atheist but still an orthodox Hindu. Was a theist half my life, or you can say undecided. So why would not I know Hindu deities. Atheism in Hinduism is as old as Hinduism and a part of it. Hindu atheism - Wikipedia

    You are right to correct me. As you know I quoted from Wikipedia. They have it wrong there. All daughters of Daksha were mothers and wives. Only two were Goddesses. Aditi among Indo-Aryans because she gave birth to Gods, and Sati because she was married to Lord Shiva in later Puranic Hinduism.

    Lastly Diti is not evil personified. She was impatient, envious of her sister, but gave birth to Gods - the Marutas. Secondly, some Asuras and Daityas were great devotees of Gods and are greatly respected in Hinduism (Mahabali, Prahlad). Actually, in the next four-Yuga cycle starting after this Kaliyuga, 426,000 years from now. Asura Mahabali will be the Indra (which is an elective position). Well, it takes time to understand the intricacies of Hinduism.

    One strange thing. Avesta mentions River Daitya as a good river. Zoroaster was born somewhere near it. Daityas are considered sons of Diti. I think I have read that there is a connection between D and wetness. There are rivers in Europe with names starting with D, some of them major (Dnieper, Don, Danube, Dneister, Dvina, etc.)
     
    #22 Aupmanyav, Jun 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  3. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Yeah, Milky Way mythology is cross-cultural, also as a river to be crossed to reach heaven, guarded by celestial dogs Kérberos, Cerberus, Garmr, Sarama in Hinduism and in Zoroastrianism, "spâna pəšu.pâna" (Bridge Protecting Dogs)

    Milky way is the celestial river Aredvi Sura Anahita in Zoroastrianism and Saraswati in Hinduism.
     
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  4. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    The Milky Way mythology is cross cultural?

    There is an underworld (hel) in Norse mythology no 'heaven', there is no river to be crossed that is associated with Garmr, nor is the milky way attested in Germanic texts.

    Cerberus guards the gates of the underworld (Hades) not of 'heaven', Cerberus like Garmr would be better characterised as chthonic not celestial. Kerberos/Cerberus/ Ce′rberus are the same, they refer to the same mythical being.

    I am not Hindu but wasn't Samara the Hindu wolf/dog of the gods that helped the Devas recover cows stolen by demons? How is that associated with the milky way/heaven/a river?
     
  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Sarama, Deva Shuni (female dog of the Gods).
    She is described as the mother of all dogs, in particular of the two four-eyed brindle dogs of the god Yama, and dogs are given the matronymic Sarameya ("offspring of Sarama"). This is very close to the Zoroastrian description of the Bridge Guarding Dogs who are described as variegated.
    Yeah, when the sun was stolen by Panis, tribal competitors of Aryans, Indra asked Sarama to help him in finding the sun. When Sarama went to Panis, they gave her milk to drink. The Panis addressed Sarama as sister and asked her to share their booties. Sarma refused that. When Sarama came back to Indra, he somehow came to know of this and kicked Sarama. Sarama vomited the milk and that is the Milky Way galaxy that we see in the sky.
    Am not impressed by the suggestions of MaxMuller, Aurobindo or Wendy Doniger.
    Sarama - Wikipedia for details.
     
  6. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    It's not my area, so thanks for the clarification but best not to incorporate mythologies you are not familiar with in your claim of cross cultural beliefs.
     
  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Kerberos did help Herakles in finding the cows as Sarama did in RigVeda for Indra. And Zoroastrians do have the variegated dogs at the Chinvat Bridge. What can I do if the mythologies say that. I do not think I am mixing any two mythologies other than these two.
    There are theories about similarity of Fenrir and Zoroastrian Ahriman. Fenrir - Wikipedia
     
  8. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    Wikipedia is not a particularly good source.

    In his twelfth and final labour Eurystheus ordered Hercules to go to Hades and kidnap Cerberus. Hercules by sheer force managed to overpower Cerberus and Hercules then presented Cerberus to Eurystheus. When Eurytheus saw the Cerberus he was frightened and begged Hercules to return the beast to the Underworld and exchange the Eurytheus would release Hercules from his labors. Cerberus was returned safely to Hades, where he resumed guarding the gateway to the Underworld. End of myth.

    For any Greek mythology I suggest Theoi.com

    CERBERUS (Kerberos) - Three-Headed Hound of Hades of Greek Mythology
    What were the 12 Labors of Hercules? -

    The connection between Cerberus, Garmr and Fenris is that they can all be considered chthonic .
     
  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    You see, the Indo-European migration started from Pontic steppes perhaps before 4,000 BCE. The Eastern movement was slower, around 3,000 BCE to Oxus valley and even later to Sogdiana, Merv, Balkh, Herat. Indo-Aryans did not reach India in numbers before 2,000 BCE. So there is a difference of 2,000 years and a distance of a few thousand miles between Europe and India. The mythologies are bound to be a bit different. It is Herakles' 10th labor which has a counterpart in RigVeda.
     
  10. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    I dont really understand your point? Neither Cerberus or his brother Orthus 'helped' Hercules.They were simply obstacles/players in the completion of his labours.

    Religious activity diverged greatly in the period post migration of the Yamnaya horizon/Yamna Culture . For sure there are correlations in basic stories and shared myth throughout the Indo-European speaking decendents of the PIE peoples, but there is also great divergence.

    The 10th labour of Herakles/Hercules, they same mythic being, does not incorporate Cerberus but rather his brother, Orthus, who was killed by Hercules. For sure cattle are involved but they were inevitably brought to Eurystheus, who sacrificed the herd to Hera.The central myth of Hercules is his strength and ability overcome adversity.

    Neither the 10th or 12the labour of Hercules supports your tenent that Cerberus, Orthus, Fenrir or Garmr can be considered celestial or in any way share a commonality with the Vedic myth of Sarama.
     
    #30 Hildeburh, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:18 AM
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020 at 4:25 AM
  11. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Hildebruh, I care fully went through the mythologies of Herakles and Kerberos, and truly there is not much to connect them with the Vedic mythology. The only point I find common is Herakles bringing the cows and Kerberos vomiting when he came out in sunlight. Therefore, I will not try to connect the two mythologies (completely, though there may be a very thin connection). Thanks for correcting me. I was following some author who connected these two.
     
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