Your point being?
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Gender Fluidity
- Thread starter PoetPhilosopher
- Start date
So you don't really have an argument against the comparison.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
The point is you're being needlessly obtuse and drawing comparisons between two radically different and unrelated things.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
My point being such a comparison is inappropriate.
It's about as much of a comparison as 'I wonder if religion will be looked on by the future the same as pedophilia.'
It's a nonsensical appeal to emotion without an argument about how the two are comparable.
There are many ways in which the gender identity and eugenics movements are comparable. Both are social-political movements. They both have a strong ideology. They both attempt to justify themselves with the imprimatur of science. They also both vehemently attack any perceived opposition. Just like you are attacking me now.
No, it isn't. There are many ways in which the gender identity and eugenics movements are similar. Unlike religion and pedophilia which are dissimilar.
Only in your opinion. Feel free to explain why such a comparison is inappropriate.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Dear god if you can't see it no words will influence you.
Oo I can do this too.
Like gender traditionalism, Eugenics tried to arbitrarily assign moral value judgements to traditional role expectations, often using unhelpful stereotypes not confirmed by actual social studies.
Like Eugenics, gender traditionalism uses pseudoscience and reductionism (such as gender = sex or race = genetics) as excuses to suppress diversity or call nontraditional groups "undesirables."
Incidentally eugenics groups targeted gender studies, and the most famous nazi bookburning photo is from a gender studies university.
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Well...
Unfortunately you missed something. "Gender traditionalism" isn't a thing. Gender identity is a recognized movement. The absence of that movement isn't one. Just as "noneugenics" isn't a thing either.
Gender traditionalism is a belief employed by many movements, most significantly conservative religious ones.
Just like eugenics was not in-of-itself a movement. It was a belief employed by multiple social political entities.
JDMS
Academic Workhorse
I grew up in a generation before any of this terminology was widely discussed or a thing. I settled on just dismissing the entire social construct of gender as bull crap. I don't believe in gender; one could say I'm anti-gender and believe human society would be better off without it. I believe people are simply people, and there is no need to create these social construct binaries of "masculine" and "feminine." I believe this binary creates social expectations and social dynamics that are inherently sexist, and that sexism is problematic. I also believe this binary has such a stranglehold on human culture I have to deal with it whether I want to or not. I also believe in respecting human diversity, and that includes respecting other people's use of the cultural construct of gender in spite of my disdain for it.
So instead, I mostly advocate for nonbinary ways of approaching the topic of gender. It could be that if I had grown up in a healthier social environment on this topic, I wouldn't have settled on dismissing the entire thing as bull crap. It's also possible that if I had grown up in a non-patriarchal, non-misogynistic environment, I wouldn't have settled on dismissing the entire thing as bull crap. We are all very much the product of our upbringings. Moving past that can be possible, but not always desirable and often difficult. I applaud anyone who takes the time and has the courage to work through these things for themselves. You are being able to do things that people of my generation rarely could or did. Cherish that, embrace that, and us allies have got your back. You do you, and you be you!
As a binary trans person, I still haven't decided what I feel about gender abolition myself. On one hand, I think it would be a neat idea in a world where there are no sex differences in the human race, but on the other hand, I exist in a world that DOES have sex differences that inevitably leads to the concept of gender being ingrained in human society.
In my view, the concept of gender rises from the separation of sexes. As long as humans have a biological sex, gender will continue to exist.
Say we decided not to acknowledge gender, even while sex exists... I feel like it would likely lead to the alienation of certain people's experiences. Those who menstrate or experience pregnancy and major rape risk often try to band together to share their experiences. Spaces for women and others that experience these things are incredibly important. But there are other risks to people who identify with feminine labels, trans or cis. Violence, social discrimination based on bodily strength or perceived differences in mood and interests, etc. Some of these things no longer apply to trans men/AFAB folks, but also now trans women as well. Yet if gender was abolished, it'd be difficult for people to find spaces that they feel describe them. AMAB folks might be excluded from these spaces more than they are already. And now trans folks can't find spaces for only themselves, too.
I also dislike the premise that "everyone is a little nonbinary", or "nonbinary is natural while gender is not", or "I think binary genders are silly, but I respect them"; this is a mentality I come across often with gender abolitionists and general nonbinary crowds.
To me, as a binary trans man who's gay but also asexual, it reads as very patronizing at times. You can see what I mean when I compare it to phrases I hear from cisgender and heterosexual people all the time... "Everyone is a little sexual", "transgenders are unnatural", "I think trans identities are silly, but I respect them".
And while I know you didn't mean it this way, this quote is exactly what I'm talking about. You personally do not understand the gender binary. It makes no logical sense to you, just like the idea of being transgender makes no logical sense to most cis folks. So when people try to tell me, "it's silly, but I respect it anyways, even though it seems wrong to me", it doesn't really feel like acceptance at all.
A world that disregards gender while sex differences exist is a world that is inherently harmful to trans people.
At least, that is how I see it.
I agree with the idea of abolishing harmful gender/sex roles and the inequalities between them, but I do not agree with the idea of abolishing gender. I feel like my mind could change on this topic, which is why say that I don't know how I feel about it, but for the moment, it seems rather harmful.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Ah yes, by asking you to have some basic respect and decency in a thread that isn't even in a debate section I'm "attacking" you.
Those are some thin and tenuous links your drawing here, trying to compare an effort to genocide people to the way in which people identify and express themselves.
What's your goal here, Shaul?
To clarify something, I think for many who are anti-gender or nonbinary wouldn't use the word "silly" to describe the consequences of rigid cultural constructs concerning this aspect of human identity. I used words like "sexist" and "problematic." I could have also used the word "harmful."
Where I respect gender constructs, it's because I understand not everyone is harmed by the expectations of them and I value diversity on the whole. I'm pretty live-and-let-live. I don't mind abiding by other cultural customs as a way of showing respect; it works for their people and that's great. The problems happen when one set of cultural ideas is the only option permitted or available. Anyone who doesn't fit into the mold is told they do not belong. That's where that word "harmful" comes in.
I am always going to have a hard time with a gender binary because it harmed me growing up. I can't apologize for that; it wasn't even something I wanted, it was forced on me by my surrounding culture. I understand the cultural construct of the binary just fine, I just don't agree with it. It's hard to agree with something that hurt you, yeah? Well, maybe not for masochists. I'm not one of those.
JDMS
Academic Workhorse
To clarify something, I think for many who are anti-gender or nonbinary wouldn't use the word "silly" to describe the consequences of rigid cultural constructs concerning this aspect of human identity. I used words like "sexist" and "problematic." I could have also used the word "harmful."
Where I respect gender constructs, it's because I understand not everyone is harmed by the expectations of them and I value diversity on the whole. I'm pretty live-and-let-live. I don't mind abiding by other cultural customs as a way of showing respect; it works for their people and that's great. The problems happen when one set of cultural ideas is the only option permitted or available. Anyone who doesn't fit into the mold is told they do not belong. That's where that word "harmful" comes in.
I am always going to have a hard time with a gender binary because it harmed me growing up. I can't apologize for that; it wasn't even something I wanted, it was forced on me by my surrounding culture. I understand the cultural construct of the binary just fine, I just don't agree with it. It's hard to agree with something that hurt you, yeah? Well, maybe not for masochists. I'm not one of those.
I would say that the gender binary hurt me pretty badly, too. I was treated like how my mother imagined girls should be treated. Forced to wear certain clothing and participate in certain activities. As an Asian child, I was yelled at over and over for disliking feminine things, and as I got older, I was ruthlessly punished for dishonoring her image and refusing to provide her with babies. I was eventually cut off, which is probably the harshest punishment in Japanese American culture. And all these things happen to white, black, and Hispanic trans folks too. So it's not about accepting other cultural customs. Its a universal problem.
I was definitely harmed by some of the negative effects of the construct of the gender binary.
But I'm still a binary trans man. I did not choose to become a binary trans man, I just am one. And after being raped by men I'm still a man. Nothing can change that. No experience I've ever had can.
Your upbringing can definitely effect how you see gender as a concept, but it cannot change your innate underlying view of your own gender. Millions of people are harmed by it and still end up cis or binary trans. If you have a nonbinary outlook, you probably would've no matter how you were raised. Edit: Maybe this statement is too broad. It can definitely cause folks trouble and bury their feelings about their gender identity for more years than it would've taken them to figure themselves out normally.
Irrelevant to the main question. Will the modern gender identity movement be judged beneficial or deleterious by history?
My goal is discussion. Apparently some here aren't interested in that.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Could have absolutely fooled me, what with the absolutely asinine comparison between gender identity and eugenics.