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Free Will and Fate

idea

idea

Question Everything
PolyHedral said:
The cube doesn't change, but that doesn't make 2-dimensional space an illusion.
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ok - time exists, but it is only part of the picture... 2D exists, but it is only part of the picture... eventually we will be able to step out of time as we can step out of 2D, to see it for what it really is.
 
PolyHedral

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
idea said:
ok - time exists, but it is only part of the picture... 2D exists, but it is only part of the picture... eventually we will be able to step out of time as we can step out of 2D, to see it for what it really is.
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Yes. We already have. Physicists deal with non-Euclidean 4D-space routinely.
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
idea said:
knowing it, and causing it, are two different things not to be confused with one another... Whoever is in control of the "cause" is control of the will... We are our own cause, our mind is our own, and so it is our own will.
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Is "God" the creator of everything? Or just some things? It's creation, rather than knowing, that implies causation.
 
D

DinChild

Member
idea said:
determinism does not kill free will. It's ok if the future is set in stone - the point of free will is "who" sets it in stone. Just because God knows what we are going to do, does not mean that it isn't our choice. I can know what will be on TV tonight, but that does not mean I am responsible for it.... God knows, but we are the ones who choose it - it is our own choice.

re: cause/effect... where does it start? what is the original cause?.... we believe that there is no beginning, that our spirits are eternal with no beginning and no end... no beginning = we are self-existent, we are our own cause - this is the root of our free will.
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In NO WAY does knowing the schedule of television equate to omniscience. This might be the weakest argument I've ever heard, and I'll explain why. Because I know what's going to be on TV doesn't enable me to have free will. It gives me options. If I know what's going to be on, I can choose whatever option I please, right?

Enter GOD. The truly OMNISCIENT being who already KNOWS what I will watch. Regardless of the schedule, or what I know of it...he KNOWS what I WILL watch. I have absolutely no power over choosing anything BUT what God already knows I will. That's the paradox of free will in the presence of an omniscient being. Your metaphor exists ONLY in the realm of humans. But since, for many MILLIONS of people, God is a fact, we must account for the attributes he encompasses. One of which is omniscience. A quality that negates free will. And therefore, negates itself.
 
B

Benhamine

Learning Member
DinChild said:
In NO WAY does knowing the schedule of television equate to omniscience. This might be the weakest argument I've ever heard, and I'll explain why. Because I know what's going to be on TV doesn't enable me to have free will. It gives me options. If I know what's going to be on, I can choose whatever option I please, right?

Enter GOD. The truly OMNISCIENT being who already KNOWS what I will watch. Regardless of the schedule, or what I know of it...he KNOWS what I WILL watch. I have absolutely no power over choosing anything BUT what God already knows I will. That's the paradox of free will in the presence of an omniscient being. Your metaphor exists ONLY in the realm of humans. But since, for many MILLIONS of people, God is a fact, we must account for the attributes he encompasses. One of which is omniscience. A quality that negates free will. And therefore, negates itself.
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I think he was equating you the viewer to God in that metaphor. IE You/God knows what's going to be on but it is the TV companies/humans that decide what will be on. So You/God are aware of what's going to happen but didn't choose it.

The only problem with this is God knew what we were going to do when he started this whole sha-bang, so in choosing the way our universe works...he also would have chosen our choices :rolleyes:

-Benhamine
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
DinChild said:
In NO WAY does knowing the schedule of television equate to omniscience. This might be the weakest argument I've ever heard, and I'll explain why. Because I know what's going to be on TV doesn't enable me to have free will. It gives me options. If I know what's going to be on, I can choose whatever option I please, right?

Enter GOD. The truly OMNISCIENT being who already KNOWS what I will watch. Regardless of the schedule, or what I know of it...he KNOWS what I WILL watch. I have absolutely no power over choosing anything BUT what God already knows I will. That's the paradox of free will in the presence of an omniscient being. Your metaphor exists ONLY in the realm of humans. But since, for many MILLIONS of people, God is a fact, we must account for the attributes he encompasses. One of which is omniscience. A quality that negates free will. And therefore, negates itself.
Click to expand...
Let me throw this in. God knows what you watch but what if he intervenes and decides to let you know what he knows. God may know that intervening will change the original plan. I don't see omniscience as just knowing what will happen but also what could happen if different choices were made in which case every possibility is an outcome for omniscience. You'd have billions of possible earth scenarios to look at because you would know the cause and effect of every choice. An omniscient being would know what your life would be like if you chose a different career path no matter what the actual choice is.
 
D

DinChild

Member
idav said:
Let me throw this in. God knows what you watch but what if he intervenes and decides to let you know what he knows. God may know that intervening will change the original plan. I don't see omniscience as just knowing what will happen but also what could happen if different choices were made in which case every possibility is an outcome for omniscience. You'd have billions of possible earth scenarios to look at because you would know the cause and effect of every choice. An omniscient being would know what your life would be like if you chose a different career path no matter what the actual choice is.
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Oh, totally. And this, like the Creationist worldview, would be another clever twist on the issue to ambiguously sway the vote back in their favor. Without going into quantum mechanics, multiple dimensions, and parallel universes, we live this life, the one where a single line of consciousness flows from decision to decision. Where THIS specific choice-line ends up was necessarily predetermined in the knowing. If I could have been anyone else, based on your interpretation, I would never know. Therefore, I'm doomed to whatever courses of action I take.

But let's be serious here, Jesus is supposedly God. And he too would have had his own infinite options laid before him. I believe, in light of this testimony, that his life couldn't have gone any other way. Otherwise, his story itself would be negated. Jesus the carpenter? Maybe Jesus the fisherman. Or Jesus the slave owner? Or Jesus the drunk? To be consistent, we must all be weighed the same. And in my opinion, the parallel universe concept is tantalizing, but silly.

Oh, also, God said he would never intervene again. So it is written, so shall be done!
 
D

DinChild

Member
Benhamine said:
I think he was equating you the viewer to God in that metaphor. IE You/God knows what's going to be on but it is the TV companies/humans that decide what will be on. So You/God are aware of what's going to happen but didn't choose it.

The only problem with this is God knew what we were going to do when he started this whole sha-bang, so in choosing the way our universe works...he also would have chosen our choices :rolleyes:

-Benhamine
Click to expand...

I don't know if I'd argue his metaphor as being so...complicated. Omniscience wouldn't separate the viewers from the tv companies. And it certainly wouldn't have any change regarding our choices. It's still all pre-determined. Perhaps not by his own doing, but he knows.

Consider the "test" of Adam and Eve. Is a test REALLY a test if you know the outcome? Go a step further. If you know the outcome, can you REALLY damn an entire species to sin based on an illegitimate examination? Seems funky to me.
 
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idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
DinChild said:
Oh, totally. And this, like the Creationist worldview, would be another clever twist on the issue to ambiguously sway the vote back in their favor. Without going into quantum mechanics, multiple dimensions, and parallel universes, we live this life, the one where a single line of consciousness flows from decision to decision. Where THIS specific choice-line ends up was necessarily predetermined in the knowing. If I could have been anyone else, based on your interpretation, I would never know. Therefore, I'm doomed to whatever courses of action I take.

But let's be serious here, Jesus is supposedly God. And he too would have had his own infinite options laid before him. I believe, in light of this testimony, that his life couldn't have gone any other way. Otherwise, his story itself would be negated. Jesus the carpenter? Maybe Jesus the fisherman. Or Jesus the slave owner? Or Jesus the drunk? To be consistent, we must all be weighed the same. And in my opinion, the parallel universe concept is tantalizing, but silly.

Oh, also, God said he would never intervene again. So it is written, so shall be done!
Click to expand...
I do really doubt there are parallel universes but it doesn't change the fact that if other choices are made different results would occur. My main point is that knowledge makes a huge difference and when we can predict more clearly we would end up making more correct choices. We make choices based on what we think will occur but if we knew for a fact what would occur it would be whole different ball game even if it is still determined. I'm still under the impression that knowing a future event to cause a change in the present is a bit paradoxical.
 
D

DinChild

Member
idav said:
I do really doubt there are parallel universes but it doesn't change the fact that if other choices are made different results would occur. My main point is that knowledge makes a huge difference and when we can predict more clearly we would end up making more correct choices. We make choices based on what we think will occur but if we knew for a fact what would occur it would be whole different ball game even if it is still determined. I'm still under the impression that knowing a future event to cause a change in the present is a bit paradoxical.
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Oh, I completely agree. But I kinda like looking at that concept from the Jesus point of view. He was a man, and therefore constrained to the same limitations as you and me, no? Would it be fair to say that there are no parallel universes because the rules have to apply to everyone? If not (and hypothetically, obviously), do you think he made bad decisions? Is there a version of the world where people praise Jesus the Gigolo?
 
B

Benhamine

Learning Member
DinChild said:
I don't know if I'd argue his metaphor as being so...complicated. Omniscience wouldn't separate the viewers from the tv companies. And it certainly wouldn't have any change regarding our choices. It's still all pre-determined. Perhaps not by his own doing, but he knows.

Consider the "test" of Adam and Eve. Is a test REALLY a test if you know the outcome? Go a step further. If you know the outcome, can you REALLY damn an entire species to sin based on an illegitimate examination? Seems funky to me.
Click to expand...

Yea I wouldn't agree with it as a valid argument but I understand where he was trying to go.

-Benhamine
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
DinChild said:
Oh, I completely agree. But I kinda like looking at that concept from the Jesus point of view. He was a man, and therefore constrained to the same limitations as you and me, no? Would it be fair to say that there are no parallel universes because the rules have to apply to everyone? If not (and hypothetically, obviously), do you think he made bad decisions? Is there a version of the world where people praise Jesus the Gigolo?
Click to expand...
If he knew the future I'm sure he could have changed it if he wanted to. Like stopping from being turned in. I imagine he would have had to purposely not go against what was to be written. If he knew he was going to be turned in he could have fled like he usually did prior to the last supper.
 
atanu

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Bump.

So free will and fate are in actions that begin with mind. Beneath mind, is there any meaning of these words?
 
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St Giordano Bruno

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
I don't believe in free will as we all exist within the context of a timescape where futures are out there waiting for us to get to one of them and we do not make a singular future as we go along. But there are multiple futures as there are multiple pasts and it is only a quirk of conscious attention that makes us aware of one of them giving us an illusion that we made some kind of conscious choice or action.
 
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