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Free Will and Fate
- Thread starter atanu
- Start date
Choosing ones future is free will and going down the required path, which is difficult to say the least since the future is unknow to a great extent. However determinism would have it that the future is very much predictable and if this is true then one could know the future and ultimately alter it. In that sense determinism becomes a paradox in which the future alters the past. This is an issue which has been observed in quantum mechanics and determinism starts to fall apart.
Thank you Ben. Actually, in Hinduism, an enlightened one has no action. When we mean karma (action), we also mean subsequent fruit -- bitter or sweet. The enlightened has no such karma. His domain is of action in inaction and he is taintless.
You will understand this with an example. Suppose in your dream you murder someone and are then imprisoned. In dream you go through free will-fate cycle and in dream you suffer. Only after the dream is over that you take a peaceful breath again.
The enlightened one is like that -- not tangled in nature -- not dreaming.
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Of course, many may not see it like this.
Starsoul
Truth
Its like i made this really yummy glass of fresh lemonade with mint leaves, I was quite thirsty( I prepared it with a lot of keen interest, free will and choice lol) and I then placed it on the table and went to another room to get something, and when I came back, my brother just pushed the glass by mistake , off the table. I was not destined to have it, even though I really wanted to.
There's another, I used to go out of the house at 5.10 pm to my work place, this one day I was going to do the same, but the car wont start and I came back inside my home to get something, and right about that time , when I was supposed to be out on the road, at this certain spot, had I driven to my work, there was a huge bomb blast, which killed many people... Destiny is definitely stronger than free will, I could be at this place if my car started in time like it always does. The unfortunate/fortunate ones were destined to be there...(I say fortunate because who knows, they were nearer to God in ranks )
There's another, I used to go out of the house at 5.10 pm to my work place, this one day I was going to do the same, but the car wont start and I came back inside my home to get something, and right about that time , when I was supposed to be out on the road, at this certain spot, had I driven to my work, there was a huge bomb blast, which killed many people... Destiny is definitely stronger than free will, I could be at this place if my car started in time like it always does. The unfortunate/fortunate ones were destined to be there...(I say fortunate because who knows, they were nearer to God in ranks )
Ah well, then we seem to be facing a misunderstanding on my part. I'm not very apt on Hiduism enlightenment. When you said enlightened my brain shot to Buddhism and I suppose that was a bit presumptuous on my part. So in Hinduism an enlightened being is the state one reaches when they've broken the chain of reincarnations and is outside of this world right? (My knowledge of Hiduism is very basic to say the least, and could use some education). If this is the case, then yes the enlightened one wouldn't be a part of this world/universe and thus wouldn't be prone to the nature of determinism. However, I don't think determinism has ever tried to explain actions outside of this realm...but I may be wrong.
-Benhamine
If determinisim is correct, then every thought we have is destined, as well as our choices, and intelligence, etc. We would be as much a part of nature as the part that we have analyzed in order to predict the future. If we did predict the future perfectly, then that future would indeed happen. But if someone made the decision to alter it, then that person was not taken into account in the analysis that was done to come up with the predicition. If he was taken into account, then his every thought and action would have been accounted for and we would know how that would impact the future.
I understand that but the future influencing the past is a paradox in itself. The future can be determined because you see each cause in which case knowledge becomes power in that you would be able to alter the cause. Why wouldn't you be able to if you know all the intricacies? The Minority Report put it perfectly at the end of the movie when the 'Thought Crime' experiment fell to pieces. I know it is a Sci-Fi movie but I'm in agreement with it's proposal of affecting so called future events.
The blue is more or less correct. The red is wrong -- since there are no separate physical places -- at least not evident. The main theme is that ignorance and karma (work, which inevitably leads to fruits that must be faced) are without beginning. But that is only ignorance. Knowledge is that which confirms that one is not the doer and is never tainted.
So, the idea of Free Will and Destiny apply only to the stage of ignorance.
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Well, again, you aren't taking into account the person who would 'alter' it. He is left out of the analysis and is thought to 'change' the future. Its fine to analyze some parts of reality and come to an understanding of what that part's future would be, as long as there are no other variables introduced into the system. In this case this person who alters it is that variable, because she was not included in the analysis. Had she been thoroughly analyzed
D) then we would know exactly what she would think and do and how her interaction with the system would affect the future.I just had an interesting thought. If it would be possible to study all of reality and predict the future of reality perfectly, it would also be possible to look backwards in time with a perfect view of history. If there would be anything we would want to know about the past we could figure it out lol.
Havn't see it.
Determinism would say that there is no if but in my version every probability is an if statement. When looking at probability you are looking at the cause and effect of every possible event given a deterministic model. Take billiards for example. You can use classic physics to determine every possible way the balls would fall if you hit the cue ball any number of ways. When you can determine every single possible event you would know how to hit the cue ball to get your desired result. Just like a professional pool player is excellent not because he is psychic but because he is damn good and very good at predicting using the deterministic model. Even if a player was very good at hitting the ball at certain angles they wouldn't be any good if their physics is wrong and so the desired result they expected would be wrong. If the amateur player had known they would have hit the ball differently.Well, again, you aren't taking into account the person who would 'alter' it. He is left out of the analysis and is thought to 'change' the future. Its fine to analyze some parts of reality and come to an understanding of what that part's future would be, as long as there are no other variables introduced into the system. In this case this person who alters it is that variable, because she was not included in the analysis. Had she been thoroughly analyzed
I just had an interesting thought. If it would be possible to study all of reality and predict the future of reality perfectly, it would also be possible to look backwards in time with a perfect view of history. If there would be anything we would want to know about the past we could figure it out lol.
Havn't see it.
That movie I mentioned is pretty good if you like futuristic sci-fi.
How does that relate to fate?
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Rewrite:
"----the feeling of being fated is simply the state of ignorance concerning the cause---"
I understand but that has to do with what already happened not what will happen.
If one were not ignorant to the cause before it happened (future) then one could change it before it happens.
Yes, but that doesn't really mean anything. You could just as easily say that we are changing the future right now with our choices. But from the perspective of determinism, we are a part of the system just as much as anything else is and are also determined. You can't consider yourself to be separate from the system if we are talking determinism. What you are saying here is not determinism at all, but free will.
The problem I'm having is that free will is a problem of ignorance but not in the same context as Atanu said. Let me put it to you this way. Only an omniscient being would have complete free will because such a being would not only know what will happen but also what could happen especially if such a being could intervene. Humans do have knowledge though very limited. We know to a certain extent the possibilities and choose based on what we think will happen just as much as we are influenced by previous causes. If we had perfect knowledge would we not choose differently? I understand that the perfect knowledge would then be a cause also but it lends to giving us free will because we would be choosing the future and the future would not be chosen for us.
According to determinism every choice you make is determined, just as every other aspect of reality is determined.
Having perfect knowledge wouldn't change that. Even if you could decide to shape all of reality into whatever form you wanted, the whole process of making that decision, your memories and emotions, your intelligence and experience, your intuition and wisdom, every single thought you would have, are all determined.
Determinism states that everything has a destiny. No ifs, ands, or buts. What you are saying here is simply the idea of free will, which is the other side of the coin.
No. IMO, it applies both ways.