Free healthcare

[Estro Felino]

What money.... exactly?
If you spend beyond yours means you will either need to:

1) create money out of thin air, or,
2) borrow it from someone else, or,
3) seize it from someone else.

There is a limit to how much you can get from any of those alternatives. Unregulated spending will never be satisfied by any of those. There must be a budget. We can discuss about how big it should be, but there must be one.

The only authority on this Earth who is authorized to print money is the State.
The people other than the State who print money are called falsifiers.

 

[Koldo]

And yet, it is legal restrictions on government spending that bring the US government close to crashing and burning on the regular, and brought the EU its worst political crisis pre-Brexit.

As I see it, the problem with the US is that it taxes too little and doesn't spend it wisely.
As for the EU, the situation varies depending on the country.

 

[Koldo]

The only authority on this Earth who is authorized to print money is the State.
The people other than the State who print money are called falsifiers.

Sure. I was talking about the State printing money.

 

[Estro Felino]

Sure. I was talking about the State printing money.

What is money? The value we give to goods and services.
If I State, produce goods and services worth 4 billion $, I need to print 4 billion dollars banknotes.
So people can buy those good and services

 

[Koldo]

What is money? The value we give to goods and services.
If I State, produce goods and services worth 4 billion $, I need to print 4 billion dollars banknotes.
So people can buy those good and services

And if I happen to spend 16 billion dollars...?

 

[HonestJoe]

Question: By healthcare workers, are you including doctors?

Certainly.

 

[Koldo]

Certainly.

Do you mean doctors don't earn a whole lot of money in your country?

Here in Brazil, every single doctor is well off in their lives. Easily in the top 10% earners.
A brand new doctor that smells like a newborn can earn in a day what ammounts to the monthly minimum wage.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In fairness, what you need to add is that this is funded out of central taxation, so tax rates are higher in countries that have such a system, with wealthier people contributing more than those on lower income. Nothing is "free", ultimately.

This is certainly true -- and voters in the countries who opted for such systems were aware of what they were doing. I certainly know that my paycheck has tax deductions that are higher than they might be if we didn't have our single-payer system in Canada. And I voted for exactly that, knowing that's how I would pay for it.

In some sense, it's quite like insurance -- if everybody insures, then everybody pays a small(ish) premium in order to avoid a potential huge loss, statistically few and far between. These are most sensible ideas that help us support one another.

 

[Kooky]

As I see it, the problem with the US is that it taxes too little and doesn't spend it wisely.

The debt ceiling is a purely legal construct that has little to do with either.

As for the EU, the situation varies depending on the country.

It absolutely does not. All members of the Eurozone are signed to the same deal, and none of them is allowed to print extra money to cover their debt the way most countries have commonly done throughout their history.

 

[Kooky]

In some sense, it's quite like insurance -- if everybody insures, then everybody pays a small(ish) premium in order to avoid a potential huge loss, statistically few and far between. These are most sensible ideas that help us support one another.

It's literally a form of insurance, just not focused on generating profit for a capital owner the way private insurance schemes are.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's literally a form of insurance, just not focused on generating profit for a capital owner the way private insurance schemes are.

And that is why it is one of the things that perhaps government ought to run.

It's an interesting thought that the more absolute the need for a commodity, the less safe it is to leave to the for-profit world. I'm happy that, so far at least, I don't have to pay a fee for the air I breathe. To the destitute family with nothing -- so no means to pay -- that would be even scarier than being short of food, wouldn't it?

 

[Koldo]

The debt ceiling is a purely legal construct that has little to do with either.

What exactly do you propose though?
That there should be no limit to how much the government spends?
I would like to understand from what angle you are approaching this.

It absolutely does not. All members of the Eurozone are signed to the same deal, and none of them is allowed to print extra money to cover their debt the way most countries have commonly done throughout their history.

But it affects them differently.
Printing money is the easy part. Getting away with it is the hard one.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's literally a form of insurance, just not focused on generating profit for a capital owner the way private insurance schemes are.

Also because the NHS is owned by the State.

 

[Estro Felino]

What exactly do you propose though?
That there should be no limit to how much the government spends?
I would like to understand from what angle you are approaching this.
But it affects them differently.
Printing money is the easy part. Getting away with it is the hard one.

There is a big difference between the State and the ECB bankers.
The State uses money to build schools, universities, hospitals.
The ECB bankers stockpile millions in their private accounts to buy themselves luxurious villas in Tuscany.

 

[exchemist]

This is certainly true -- and voters in the countries who opted for such systems were aware of what they were doing. I certainly know that my paycheck has tax deductions that are higher than they might be if we didn't have our single-payer system in Canada. And I voted for exactly that, knowing that's how I would pay for it.

In some sense, it's quite like insurance -- if everybody insures, then everybody pays a small(ish) premium in order to avoid a potential huge loss, statistically few and far between. These are most sensible ideas that help us support one another.

Insurance is what it is, of potentially the most efficient kind, in which you have the largest possible pool of risk-sharing, and done on a non-profit basis. The only twist is that people pay in depending on their means, so it has a redistributive element as well.

 

[HonestJoe]

Do you mean doctors don't earn a whole lot of money in your country?

That isn't what I said, only that pay increases haven't necessarily kept pace with inflation and pay rates elsewhere.

Doctors specifically do still have above average pay, though only after a long and expensive education period and with some long and tough working hours and while pay at the very top can be extremely high, that only applies to a tiny minority with significant experience and responsibility. Pay is certainly less of an issue for doctors as it is for other healthcare workers and the general lessening of respect is more relevant for doctors.

Here in Brazil, every single doctor is well off in their lives. Easily in the top 10% earners.
A brand new doctor that smells like a newborn can earn in a day what ammounts to the monthly minimum wage.

I don't know if you're exaggerating there but it's nothing close to that here in the UK. Newly qualified doctors (after their education and training) are paid something just over the national average (which is good but not excessive).

 

[Koldo]

That isn't what I said, only that pay increases haven't necessarily kept pace with inflation and pay rates elsewhere.

I see.

Doctors specifically do still have above average pay, though only after a long and expensive education period and with some long and tough working hours and while pay at the very top can be extremely high, that only applies to a tiny minority with significant experience and responsibility. Pay is certainly less of an issue for doctors as it is for other healthcare workers and the general lessening of respect is more relevant for doctors.

I don't know if you're exaggerating there but it's nothing close to that here in the UK. Newly qualified doctors (after their education and training) are paid something just over the national average (which is good but not excessive).

Nope, I am not exaggerating.
As soon as you are done with the training you are qualified to be on duty in a hospital for 24 hours. At the very least you are going to get paid the monthly minimum wage in a single day for this, possibly even twice as much. It is a tiresome job but the payment is that high. The alternatives also pay really nicely. It is pretty much the only profession where you can be average on your job and still earn a lot of money.

Everyone and their mothers wants to be a doctor here in Brazil. The problem is that you need either rich parents to afford the educational costs or be one of the top scorers in a national exam to get into a public college.

 

[Koldo]

There is a big difference between the State and the ECB bankers.
The State uses money to build schools, universities, hospitals.
The ECB bankers stockpile millions in their private accounts to buy themselves luxurious villas in Tuscany.

And, therefore...?
Does that mean the State should be able to spend as much money as it wants whenever it feels like doing so?

 

[HonestJoe]

Nope, I am not exaggerating.

My reading suggests you might well be but regardless, this feels like a specific Brazilian issue. My comment was about healthcare in the developed world.

 

[Koldo]

My reading suggests you might well be but regardless, this feels like a specific Brazilian issue. My comment was about healthcare in the developed world.

I swear I am not. I am glad the situation might seem absurd from your perspective, it means it is not as messed up in other places. But yeah, I know you were talking about the developed world. I didn't mean my post as a rebuttal to what you were saying. I just couldn't afford to lose chance to gain insight on how things work elsewhere.