Free health care in America

[lilithu]

Should we have universal health care in America?

Yes.

Why?

Justice.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

About the only thing I can say here that hasn't been said by many others here (frubals to fullyveiled and Booko!) is that I work in a cemetery.

And I am damn sick of watching people being buried who would still be here with their families and loved ones and parents and siblings and children and lovers if only they were millionaires or billionaires or had health insurance. One woman, who's daughter just died of cancer that could have been treated if only in the three jobs that girl held they gave her insurance, backed into my car in the parking lot of the cemetery office and just got out and sobbed as I held her. Just remember that next time you're sick or injured and blessed with health insurance that won't drop you. That's not your distraught family members. That's six feet of dirt that isn't over you.

I just don't understand how people can be so nonchalant when other people are suffering. Until it happens to them, I suppose. I would happy endure a tax raise if it meant my fellow Americans weren't dying for being poor.

So well said especially about otehr people not caring. As you said, until it happens to them. i guess when they get kidney failure or cancer, and can't get a treatment to save them because the insurance company felt it was non-essential, they'll see the injustice we're talking about.

 

[Napoleon]

Should we have universal health care in America? Why or why not?

Absolutely not. The government cannot be trusted to run such a program. What the government should be doing is banning patents on medicines, regulating the pharmaceutical industry, regulating the insurance industry, and giving tax breaks for medical expenses for the lower and middle classes. People in the United States can afford to purchase health insurance. They're just unwilling to do so when it means cutting back on other luxuries.

 

[lilithu]

People in the United States can afford to purchase health insurance. They're just unwilling to do so when it means cutting back on other luxuries.

So health care is a luxury?

No, a lot of people really cannot afford to purchase health insurance. You've clearly been lucky enough to have never experienced poverty. Good for you. That doesn't mean tho that you can't have compassion for others. Honestly, how is it that people can just assume that poorer people are that way because they "wasted" their money on "luxuries"?

 

[Kungfuzed]

Absolutely not. The government cannot be trusted to run such a program. What the government should be doing is banning patents on medicines, regulating the pharmaceutical industry, regulating the insurance industry, and giving tax breaks for medical expenses for the lower and middle classes. People in the United States can afford to purchase health insurance. They're just unwilling to do so when it means cutting back on other luxuries.

Can the insurance companies be trusted any further than the govornment? Would there even be a pharmaceutical industry without patents?

As for affording health insurance, with most of the jobs I've had I couldn't even afford rent. Health insurance with many of the job's I've had would have taken a third of my paycheck. When you're only making 8 dollars an hour every penny counts, and many people make less than that. It's alot better now, at least for me, since I've worked my way up a little, but not everyone can do that. Even still, if my wife didn't have a good job in addition to mine, we still wouldn't have health insurance. I still haven't been to a doctor in over 15 years. I believe in pulling my own weight. I don't want to be a burden on everyone else. But I do have a little compassion for others too. One thing to consider is that many people who are sick or injured can't work and end up loosing their livelyhood.

I've got an idea. How's about an X-Prize for medicine. The first company with a cure for male pattern baldness, or whatever horrible disease you want, gets 10 Billion dollars, or whatever disgusting ammount of money can be raised. The govornment hands over the prize money and gets the patent then manufactures it cheap, or the company agrees to sell it cheap in exchange for the prize money. If it can work for space flight, why not medicine?

 

[jamaesi]

They're just unwilling to do so when it means cutting back on other luxuries.

"Luxuries" like what? Food, shelter, and clothing?

 

[lilithu]

Can the insurance companies be trusted any further than the govornment?

:bow:

 

[jonny]

Justice.

I have a problem with this being the reasoning for gov't run health care because I don't like the road that this is heading down. As soon as "free health care" becomes a right, what is the next right - free housing? How about free food? We all need that to survive - why don't we turn the grocery stores over to the gov't. In fact, we could also depend on the gov't to assign us all jobs. That way we'd be have the right to a job and money.

I willing to listen to reasoning for having the gov't help with health care, but not because of 'justice.' I'm more interested in lower costs because the insurer isn't trying to make a profit and everyone having the 'ability' to have insurance. This isn't about 'justice.'

Barack Obama's plan seems reasonable to me: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

 

[Ciscokid]

I have a problem with this being the reasoning for gov't run health care because I don't like the road that this is heading down. As soon as "free health care" becomes a right, what is the next right - free housing? How about free food? We all need that to survive - why don't we turn the grocery stores over to the gov't. In fact, we could also depend on the gov't to assign us all jobs. That way we'd be have the right to a job and money.

I willing to listen to reasoning for having the gov't help with health care, but not because of 'justice.' I'm more interested in lower costs because the insurer isn't trying to make a profit and everyone having the 'ability' to have insurance. This isn't about 'justice.'

Barack Obama's plan seems reasonable to me: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

Exactly!! It sounds like people are saying that it's not fair some people are poor. I happen to know several folks personally that are at the poverty level and let me state that I'm finding a good number of these folks are poor directly due to some bad mistakes they've made in life. I know not all poor folks are poor due to irresponsibility and mismanagement of their lives but I happen to believe there's a large percentage of folks that choose to be poor.

My stance is this, if you're poor because of decisions you've made in life...I'm not interested in spending my money to assist you. If you're poor because of a bad hand you were given early in life, then you should receive help and get healthcare that you need.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

It is disgusting to me that this thread is turning down the path of blaming the poor for being poor, and thusly in essence saying that because you are poor healthcare is not a right for you. Forget the fact that poor people are human, that we have families,children, we have to eat, be clothed, be sheltered. Have you all ever heard of the working poor? People who work more than one job just to make ends meet that don't really meet even after the paychecks clear? The poor are getting the same tax dollars cut out of a meager check as the other working people. The fact of the matter is that this system is designed to keep a poor person poor, and a rich person rich.

I am thoroughly disgusted that people still think in this day and age that poor people are poor because they want to be, are lazy, don't care enough to work hard, etc etc. Many people become poor because they have lost their health and cannot work anymore, and healthcare suck so bad they lost all their earnings paying for it and are in debt they can't get out of.

My stance is this, if you're poor because of decisions you've made in life...I'm not interested in spending my money to assist you. If you're poor because of a bad hand you were given early in life, then you should receive help and get healthcare that you need.

And how praytell are people going to regulate who's poor due to bad decisions, and who isn't? Who gets to make the call on what was a bad decision for you to make in your lifetime? Also who hasn't made bad life choices at some point? Those who make bad business decisions, or in bad choices in general have to pay for it with their health and lives yes? What a load.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I have a problem with this being the reasoning for gov't run health care because I don't like the road that this is heading down. As soon as "free health care" becomes a right, what is the next right - free housing? How about free food?

Not a bad idea. If healthcare can be made universal, and housing and food cheap we can build a capitalist system designed NOT to grind on the backs of the poor and needy. If people's basic needs are meet sufficiently, everyone can have an opportunity to spend their hard earnings on more things they want, rather than being taken through the ringer for stuff they absolutely need.

Have you ever sat bakc and actually thought about the crap we pay so dearly for? You're absolutely right, we pay for stuff we need to survive. It's not cheap either. God forbid a poor person comes down with an illness that is easily treated if they change their diet. Just outta luck because that can be expensive. I had a friend who came down with Celiac's disease. This means she couldn't eat things with gluten in them. That's all wheat/certain grains products. Can you imagine how much more money that is? Gluten free flour is an arm and a leg for a small bag, etc etc. She can't afford that on a regular basis, but she still have to eat something, so guess what she have to do??? Eat things with gluten in them and remain sick. Can't afford insurance, and can't afford the alternative food choices that would remedy her situation. Guess she deserves it for being poor.

 

[lilithu]

I have a problem with this being the reasoning for gov't run health care because I don't like the road that this is heading down. As soon as "free health care" becomes a right, what is the next right - free housing? How about free food?http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

Jonny, we already have govt assistance for housing and food. So what is your objection to health care?

 

[Ciscokid]

Jonny, we already have govt assistance for housing and food. So what is your objection to health care?

Free housing or housing assistance and foodstamps etc to [those who qualify] are a far cry from free healthcare for everyone.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Another thing about poor people is that alternative ways to make money become illegal suddenly when poor people do it. Example, when I was a teenager this man that lived around our house. He was an ex-con and so could only get a little crap of a job. He was in jail because he used to steal and chop cars. He knew alot about cars and was just a natural mechanical whiz when it came to them. Anyway, he used to work on cars in his garage. Now the personal garages aren't regulation for working on cars because of fumes, oils and such, but it was what he knew how to do. He used to work throught the night, and it was noisy, but no one ever complained because we knew his condition. Except one person called. The police came and shut the whole operation down. He tried to start it back up again, but the police always came around checking to make sure he wasn't working. He took to going to the people who's cars were broken on the street to fix them. Coincidentaly, fixing cars ont he street was just as illegal, so he could never really make any money anymore. He had to move out soon after that because of not being able to pay the rent, and I never knew what became of that man.

He didn't have any money to go to school for what he knew how to do, and so couldn't get certified for it. He resorted to doing what he did which I felt was an honest living. He wasn't stealing from people anymore, he was fixing cars. It was a big help to people who couldn't afford to take it to a shop mechanic, including our family.

Thats the plight of alot of poor people, who have a skill but not the money to go to school and get a piece of paper allowing them to apply that skill in a legal setting.

 

[lilithu]

Free housing or housing assistance and foodstamps etc to [those who qualify] are a far cry from free healthcare for everyone.

Jonny was objecting based on principle.

My point is that the principle is the same. There is the recognition that there are certain basic essentials to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Food, shelter and health care are amongst those essentials.

 

[Ciscokid]

Another thing about poor people is that alternative ways to make money become illegal suddenly when poor people do it. Example, when I was a teenager this man that lived around our house. He was an ex-con and so could only get a little crap of a job. He was in jail because he used to steal and chop cars. He knew alot about cars and was just a natural mechanical whiz when it came to them. Anyway, he used to work on cars in his garage. Now the personal garages aren't regulation for working on cars because of fumes, oils and such, but it was what he knew how to do. He used to work throught the night, and it was noisy, but no one ever complained because we knew his condition. Except one person called. The police came and shut the whole operation down. He tried to start it back up again, but the police always came around checking to make sure he wasn't working. He took to going to the people who's cars were broken on the street to fix them. Coincidentaly, fixing cars ont he street was just as illegal, so he could never really make any money anymore. He had to move out soon after that because of not being able to pay the rent, and I never knew what became of that man.

He didn't have any money to go to school for what he knew how to do, and so couldn't get certified for it. He resorted to doing what he did which I felt was an honest living. He wasn't stealing from people anymore, he was fixing cars. It was a big help to people who couldn't afford to take it to a shop mechanic, including our family.

Thats the plight of alot of poor people, who have a skill but not the money to go to school and get a piece of paper allowing them to apply that skill in a legal setting.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't feel too bad for the guy because HE was the direct cause of good bit of his problems. He used to go out stealing cars...you reap what you sow.

I used to live in a crummy apartment right next to a factory when I first got married. I applied for a job at a bank as a computer operator for 8 bucks an hour [previously worked for McDonalds]. I had no experience really, first non-min wage job.

I've busted my tail for the past 13 years to get where I am. I've seen folks in my own family start out with so little, just barely scraping by....each one ended up in middle or middle upper class through hard work and determination.

Is my family blessed? Is it luck? Or is it determination and drive?

I have no problem with free healthcare for the underprivledged [handicap, elderly etc]. I'm just not sold that it's a "right" and that the Government is obligated to provide this to everyone.

 

[Smoke]

Absolutely not. The government cannot be trusted to run such a program.

That argument always amazes me. If the government is so incompetent and so untrustworthy, why are we letting them run our national defense? (Or, under the present regime, our national offense.) Why are we trusting them with anything important at all?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't feel too bad for the guy because HE was the direct cause of good bit of his problems. He used to go out stealing cars...you reap what you sow.

I thought serving jail time was supposed to be an adequate way to pay one's debt to society? Guess not. He had to pay for it for the rest of his life. He got out of jail and tried to make a living honestly, which is what we supposedly want criminals to do right? We ant them to reform themselves and find a legal way to provide forthemselves and their families right? So when they do that, and it isn't what we would have done suddenly he gets what he deserves? Now he doesn't deserve to make money and eat and live because he USED TO BE a criminal?

It's that type of merciless outlook on other people, and lack of forgiveness that drives this country in the direction it goes. Poor people are hardworkers too. They have to be to work more than one job, to look after themselves and those that depend on them.

What I get from what you're saying is that the poor had better suck it up and deal with it. If they weren't able to get the same breaks you did, and they get sick and can't pay....tough. Maybe they should have thought about a sick day before they got poor. That's what I get from your posts.

The flaw with that is that the people who can pay insurance premiums are getting caught by the same net. They are getting sick as well, and then becoming poor due to the debt they find themselves in, which is directly connected to the inept and deadly healthcare system in effect to date. So if the poor shouldn't receive adequate care, then the people who become poor shouldn't get it either. Only the wealthy, the bright thinkers, the determined, and the hard workers are deserved of good care when they are sick. This is the attitude I'm picking up from you. Please tell me I'm wrong about that.

 

[Ciscokid]

That argument always amazes me. If the government is so incompetent and so untrustworthy, why are we letting them run our national defense? (Or, under the present regime, our national offense.) Why are we trusting them with anything important at all?

We're the best in the world when it comes to military drive and innovation. We are sadly efficient at anything the Gov't touches. I think efficiency is the problem as much as anything.

 

[Napoleon]

No, a lot of people really cannot afford to purchase health insurance. You've clearly been lucky enough to have never experienced poverty.

Untrue. My family operated below the poverty line for the vast majority of my childhood and it was/is a single parent household with 3 children, including myself, and we always had health insurance. It's a hard life but it's possible.

Honestly, how is it that people can just assume that poorer people are that way because they "wasted" their money on "luxuries"?

Because I lived it and I've seen it. You have no right to complain about not being able to afford health insurance while you're running around buying cell phones, manicures, hair dye, booze, cable, the internet, etc etc ad infinitum. People have an issue with priorities in this country.

Would there even be a pharmaceutical industry without patents?

There is in Europe.