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form is emptiness and emptiness is form

Wu Wei

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Posted this not too long ago on a Buddhist website and I very much enjoyed the conversations that can out of it and I was wondering what people thought of this here

I am a Martial artist and I train Internal Chinese martial arts; Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua. A few years back I was reading the book “The Xingyi Boxing Manual: Hebei Style's Five Principles and Seven Words” by Jin Yunting and I came across a line in the book "form is emptiness and emptiness is form” which is from the Heart Sutra "Form is Void and Void is Form"

Since my favorite martial art to train was Xingyiquan I spent a lot of time thinking about what Jin Yuting meant when he put that in his book as it applies to Xingyiquan and I got as far as it has a lot to do with not over thinking and trusting your movements and your training. Basically allow it to happen and don’t get in the way.

Now it is very likely I got that wrong and I am wondering if anyone has any insight into what “form is emptiness and emptiness is form” may mean Xingyiquan reference aside.

I realize this may be the wrong question and that it is only a few words from the Heart Sutra and I may be looking at it completely wrong, but I had to ask
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Because I am too much a science nerd, I immediately think of the fact that what we think of as solid matter technically composed of mostly empty space. I highly doubt this is what the writer had in mind. >_<
 
apophenia

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Emptiness means no self-essence. In other words, there is only flux and change - there are no inherently existing 'things'.

That flux is the form we perceive.

A good example is a cloud. There is no 'thing' called cloud. There is a set of changing conditions which we perceive as 'a cloud'.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Rupa Sutta: Forms
"Monks, forms are inconstant, changeable, alterable. Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.

​
Ahh, now to discern the emptiness of emptiness. ;)
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Wu Wei said:
Posted this not too long ago on a Buddhist website and I very much enjoyed the conversations that can out of it and I was wondering what people thought of this here

I am a Martial artist and I train Internal Chinese martial arts; Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua. A few years back I was reading the book “The Xingyi Boxing Manual: Hebei Style's Five Principles and Seven Words” by Jin Yunting and I came across a line in the book "form is emptiness and emptiness is form” which is from the Heart Sutra "Form is Void and Void is Form"

Since my favorite martial art to train was Xingyiquan I spent a lot of time thinking about what Jin Yuting meant when he put that in his book as it applies to Xingyiquan and I got as far as it has a lot to do with not over thinking and trusting your movements and your training. Basically allow it to happen and don’t get in the way.

Now it is very likely I got that wrong and I am wondering if anyone has any insight into what “form is emptiness and emptiness is form” may mean Xingyiquan reference aside.

I realize this may be the wrong question and that it is only a few words from the Heart Sutra and I may be looking at it completely wrong, but I had to ask
Click to expand...

Black belt here!...self defense kung fu...as taught by an aiki ju jutsu fourth dan.

Sensei was a practical instructor.
Teach the art in form so the students don't kill each other immediately.

Then....teach a form of sparring bare handed....lightly striking.
The sense of touch is critical!!!!!
Most practitioners have no idea the consequence for doing such things unto someone else!

As the years went by I learned to respond to a sense of feel....'chi'
The form remains because without it....your applied technique will fail.
The formless portion of the art is somewhere in between you and your opponent....in the 'form' of motion described as yin and yang.

The struggle in theory goes on forever as each and every movement is countered by movement.
The struggle ends as the mistakes begin to emerge....as the 'form' breaks down.

The empty part is the you inside....empty of anger or indignation.
 
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bobhikes

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I like the descriptions given but the emptyness is form kinda frames the form is emptiness.

What I think it is, is a statement on perception and its levels.

The form you are or perform on the grander scale has no form(it can't be precieved from all the chaos) as such the nothing you percieve in front of you has form on the grander scale (because it is percievable from the chaos).
 
dyanaprajna2011

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
crossfire and apophenia said it best. I want to add one thing to what they said, though. While they pointed out the inconstancy of form, and this being it's emptiness, it also says emptiness is form. Without form, there is no emptiness, and without emptiness, there is no form. This speaks to the heart of non-dualism. The Zen masters who wrote commentaries on the Heart Sutra would also say that Nirvana is samsara, and samsara is Nirvana. They would also say that there are no Buddhas without people, and no people without Buddhas. All these statements speak to the non-dual nature of objective reality. We only perceive duality, and distinctions, because the mirror of our mind is covered in dirt, namely, the dirt of the three poisons of greed/attachment, hatred/aversion, and delusion/ignorance.
 
N

nobodyisnothingisreal

New Member
emptiness is only emptiness when it is neither emptiness nor form and is always emptiness and form. nonduality, like emptiness, is neither singular nor dual and it is both singular and dual. what is changing and what is still? to know things as changing or still, nondual or dual, is illusion. the most accurate is always silence. sorry for talking so much, the practical use of these concepts results is peace, nonduality is to see the whole, to not even understand the whole as divided into parts. duality is to see the whole and its parts. humans love duality, they feel robbed without parts. forgive and forget, especially your own ignorance, you see the two with outer eyes, you see the one with inner eyes or the eye, forget, be free. a choice to see the whole is the only help.
 
Wu Wei

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
And meanwhile, I'm still thinking....

Revisiting this thread.., at the moment… close to 8 month later… I am leaning more towards what Jin Yunting was saying in his book “The Xingyi Boxing Manual: Hebei Style's Five Principles and Seven Words” when he wrote "form is emptiness and emptiness is form” is not really so deep a meaning as one would think based on it coming from the heart sutra. Not that it is easy to achieve, because it isn’t. However I am beginning to think that it is closer to “No mind” or “Mushin” in this case or to simplify even further it is more like “don’t think…do”

Quintessence said:
Because I am too much a science nerd, I immediately think of the fact that what we think of as solid matter technically composed of mostly empty space. I highly doubt this is what the writer had in mind. >_<
Click to expand...

Actually it is not all that different from how I start to think about Quantum Physics when I compare it to Buddhism
Thief said:
Black belt here!...self defense kung fu...as taught by an aiki ju jutsu fourth dan.

Sensei was a practical instructor.
Teach the art in form so the students don't kill each other immediately.

Then....teach a form of sparring bare handed....lightly striking.
The sense of touch is critical!!!!!
Most practitioners have no idea the consequence for doing such things unto someone else!

As the years went by I learned to respond to a sense of feel....'chi'
The form remains because without it....your applied technique will fail.
The formless portion of the art is somewhere in between you and your opponent....in the 'form' of motion described as yin and yang.

The struggle in theory goes on forever as each and every movement is countered by movement.
The struggle ends as the mistakes begin to emerge....as the 'form' breaks down.

The empty part is the you inside....empty of anger or indignation.
Click to expand...

I understand this and I am fairly sure, speaking as martial artists talking about “The Xingyi Boxing Manual: Hebei Style's Five Principles and Seven Words by Jin Yunting” That this is definitely part of it.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Wu Wei said:
Posted this not too long ago on a Buddhist website and I very much enjoyed the conversations that can out of it and I was wondering what people thought of this here

I am a Martial artist and I train Internal Chinese martial arts; Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua. A few years back I was reading the book &#8220;The Xingyi Boxing Manual: Hebei Style's Five Principles and Seven Words&#8221; by Jin Yunting and I came across a line in the book "form is emptiness and emptiness is form&#8221; which is from the Heart Sutra "Form is Void and Void is Form"

Since my favorite martial art to train was Xingyiquan I spent a lot of time thinking about what Jin Yuting meant when he put that in his book as it applies to Xingyiquan and I got as far as it has a lot to do with not over thinking and trusting your movements and your training. Basically allow it to happen and don&#8217;t get in the way.

Now it is very likely I got that wrong and I am wondering if anyone has any insight into what &#8220;form is emptiness and emptiness is form&#8221; may mean Xingyiquan reference aside.

I realize this may be the wrong question and that it is only a few words from the Heart Sutra and I may be looking at it completely wrong, but I had to ask
Click to expand...

Another similar thought.....sounds like Bruce Lee.
'Before you study.....a kick is a kick...
As you study....a kick is not a kick...
After you learn....a kick is a kick.'

Mr. Lee did try to express his style as a form without form.
 
Wu Wei

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Been reading a lot of Bruce Lee stuff, JKD guys books and JKD associated stuff lately and I have come to the same conclusion

(yeah I trained a bit of JKD too...but only a little bit)
 
NobodyYouKnow

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
Within the Formless, all Forms exist.

The Formless can take the shape of Form, while still remaining Formless.

It is the difference between Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa Rupam....

&#2384; &#2346;&#2370;&#2352;&#2381;&#2339;&#2350;&#2342;&#2307; &#2346;&#2370;&#2352;&#2381;&#2339;&#2350;&#2367;&#2342;&#2306; &#2346;&#2370;&#2352;&#2381;&#2339;&#2366;&#2340;&#2381;&#2346;&#2369;&#2352;&#2381;&#2339;&#2350;&#2369;&#2342;&#2330;&#2381;&#2351;&#2340;&#2375;
&#2346;&#2370;&#2352;&#2381;&#2339;&#2358;&#2381;&#2351; &#2346;&#2370;&#2352;&#2381;&#2339;&#2350;&#2366;&#2342;&#2366;&#2351; &#2346;&#2370;&#2352;&#2381;&#2339;&#2350;&#2375;&#2357;&#2366;&#2357;&#2358;&#2367;&#2359;&#2381;&#2351;&#2340;&#2375; &#2405;
&#2384; &#2358;&#2366;&#2344;&#2381;&#2340;&#2367;&#2307; &#2358;&#2366;&#2344;&#2381;&#2340;&#2367;&#2307; &#2358;&#2366;&#2344;&#2381;&#2340;&#2367;&#2307; &#2405;

Om Puurnnam-Adah Puurnnam-Idam Puurnnaat-Purnnam-Udacyate
Puurnnashya Puurnnam-Aadaaya Puurnnam-Eva-Avashissyate ||
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||
Click to expand...

Meaning:
1: Om, That is Full, This also is Full, From Fullness comes that Fullness,
2: Taking Fullness from Fullness, Fullness Indeed Remains.
3: Om Peace, Peace, Peace.

It is also through perception we can see the the Form in the Formless as any kind of 'opposite' to the Formless within Form - then we can realise the true essence of Dvaita (Duality).

It is like the moment of twilight separating night from day...the moment in time separating one nanosecond from the next...when what has come to pass, is already in the past and we are trying to grab each slippery eel with our fingers.

True emptiness precedes Form, both cosmologically and experientially.

When I had my first experience of it, I thought 'this is a crock of lies...there is nothing at the end of this rainbow...no 'enlightenment'....no 'mystical experience'....nothing!' I just experienced nothing!

It wasn't until days after that, it all started.
 
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