1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured For theists: Does God 'want'?

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by Jayhawker Soule, Nov 30, 2015.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,697
    Ratings:
    +10,015
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Why presume preternatural agency rather than preternatural catalyst?

    One reason that many presume purpose and, therefore, intentionality is that they take their scripture as holy writ. For the purpose of this thread, let's assume otherwise. What I'd like to see here is an argument for purpose (and its motivation) that does not rely on scripture and/or anthropomorphic projection.
     
  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,670
    Ratings:
    +6,999
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Is this meant to be a practice for theists: come up with a solid explanation for events the atheist way?
     
  3. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,238
    Ratings:
    +4,078
    Religion:
    Guess
    I think that is a really good question.

    I have imagined intelligence that does not seem to be from me in the air coming from seemingly nowhere.

    Think! Before scripture, there wasn't scripture. So? Something exists that is smarter than we are. I am sure.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,238
    Ratings:
    +4,078
    Religion:
    Guess
    Is there anything that human intelligence wants? I think that it can be said to be true that human intelligence wants to be understood.

    Super-human intelligence wants to be understood imho.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    13,581
    Ratings:
    +4,689
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    As a pantheist, I see the universe as a self-creative play/drama. It is like why do humans want to produce art? There is a creative aspect to the divine.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Robert.Evans

    Robert.Evans You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    6,793
    Ratings:
    +520
    Religion:
    Syncretic Theist
    Is it actually possible to look at it without "anthropomorphic projection"? We are after all human? How else do we see it? Did he not know that before he created us?
     
  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity I'm n ur cookeez
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    23,441
    Ratings:
    +6,879
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian almost quaker
    I will attempt to produce something. I apologize for the length and if there are any readability issues. I have not got anyone to check it for readability.
    According the Philosophy of Information, our reality is information without any substrate, any necessary ether to live in or mechanism of containment. I add to that the thought that information requires no beings or sources and always exists. I posit that we are, similar to numbers and mathematics, ideas without essence in addition to the Philosophy of Information (which is strictly a Physics thought experiment and deals with less spiritual ideas). I put forward that concepts do not require thought but are self existent. We are either ideas or ideas about ideas about ideas, like an ordered set of ideas. We therefore do not require existence to appear to ourselves to exist. People are confused about this, because we tend to think that ideas come from us. They do not or so I claim. Therefore they are not limited to what we can think, nor do they require us to even be. When you count to 3 do you create the number 3 or is it already there? It is already there. We are like that number 3, already there; but we are not what we seem to be. This way of looking things has implications for the question you are asking. First, it means God isn't anthropomorphic.

    Where does 'God' fit in to this? Why do I posit this and combine it with PI? First its because there appears no reason for our existence. Secondly this also all follows from the observation that everything in our universe appears to have order in it, and things without order do not appear here. Both Philosophy of Information and the ideas I put forward follow from that. In our experience everything appears to have a beginning, yet through exhaustive exploration our Physicists have found that time does not appear to exist before the universe's creation moment, nor do we appear to have a reason for existing. Nor does God. Some will say God created us, but then they cannot answer who created God! (Who can?) What we do see is that our world is full of events that all fit together, so they are ordered analogous to numbers. What I am talking about is actually a limited exploration of the nature of God through the nature of existence. It is philosophical and hopefully not sophistry.

    This is not Platonism. Ideas are like the numbers without need for any substrate, any ether, any place to be. They exist, and we sometimes become aware of them. Why do they exist? There doesn't appear to be any obvious argument. Analogously we appear for no clear reason. Numbers are, according to inductive theories, limitlessly complex. Any order without end is therefore also infinitely complex including the set of all things that might be. We exist in one of those sets of ordered groups of ideas that all work together.This is not the same as Plato's forms. It is akin to Plato's forms but posits that rather than things having a true form, we and our universe are forms. We are the ideas, not copies of ideas. Therefore Plato's forms are not applicable here except as a reference.

    I refer to all lists of all things that potentially would be or could be together in an ordered way. Our existence is (or could be) part of that, limitlessly complex but ordered. So I put to you that the appearance of reality is itself an idea or a nesting of ideas about ideas that exists analogous to the way numbers exist, and the only requirement is order. Therefore we exist as part of some kind of ordered group of ideas. Every action, thought, or motion is actually information, static, not in motion, always existing. Our 'Thoughts' are not thoughts. Our time is not time. We perceive time, but we are not in time.

    So what about God, then and how does this indicate a non-anthropomorphic God? Think about fractals. All complex ordered systems are dynamic systems, meaning all of their parts interact creating similar but differential patterns repetitiously. There is also in such systems something called self simularity or fractal patterns. Any electrical signal usually has a wave pattern, and buried in each part of that wave pattern is a smaller copy of the whole thing. Now reverse that. The smaller wave pattern does not occur in isolation but is part of something larger than itself. The smaller pattern has less detail. I just finished describing our existence as part of an ordered system. So, what is the overall nature of that system? I impute that it is a richer and more complex version of what we know now, therefore it cannot be anthropomorphic. We are like copies of the more complex thing, but it is a not a copy of us. (Not that I am suggesting Plato's forms. I am not.) Whether you believe God is the whole universe or a superbeing within it in either case God is not anthropomorphic and share similarities with more than us as well as having details that we cannot replicate. It also disparages any notion of God having a motivation for existing.

    ***edit: Change "Philosophy of Information" for "Informational Structural Realism" Sorry I got the names confused! Here's a link to the paper I that introduced me to ideas about it. It discusses thing like quantum foam and the potential for reality as we know it to actually be a form of information. http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.6007
     
    #7 Brickjectivity, Nov 30, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,345
    Ratings:
    +11,174
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    But if this is the case, then why doesn't this "super-human intelligence" produce itself to the point whereas denial of it is pretty much impossible?
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,238
    Ratings:
    +4,078
    Religion:
    Guess
    It is impossible for me to deny The God. I have thought about it. As far as I know, I can't do it.
    Funny word, "produce". I am aware God has always existed. That would make it impossible for God to produce God.
    I think you mean why doesn't God reveal God. Am I right? Let's see your picture, please. The "real" you. OK?

    WHO is Metis? I have no idea.
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,345
    Ratings:
    +11,174
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Yes to your question.

    What do you mean by "picture" in the context of the "real" me? What's that supposed to mean?
     
  11. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,238
    Ratings:
    +4,078
    Religion:
    Guess
    I am making a point. You say we should show you God but we say, "what's that suppose to mean"? I cannot make a blind man see.
     
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,238
    Ratings:
    +4,078
    Religion:
    Guess
    Post a picture of yourself. I want to see you. But if you do I must....
    believe the picture is a picture of you.

    But it won't tell me much. Will it? I can judge it. Will you?
     
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,238
    Ratings:
    +4,078
    Religion:
    Guess
    I just had an inspiration @metis. Thank you!
    God reveals God's self to people who do not judge the likeness of God. OK? True or not, I do not know.
     
  14. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,238
    Ratings:
    +4,078
    Religion:
    Guess
    I want a picture!
     
  15. Guy Threepwood

    Guy Threepwood Mighty Pirate

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    6,518
    Ratings:
    +1,703
    Religion:
    Non atheist
    People deduced agency before scripture. The observation that the world around us is not adequately accounted for by 'chance' underlies all theism. And that's pretty much the rationale I share with most of humanity.

    to expand a little

    To assume the laws of nature can ultimately be accounted for by.. those very same laws- is an inherent paradox which only purpose can solve. The only way anything can truly be created as opposed to being a predetermined consequence of cause and effect. Creative intelligence has power of explanation for creation that nature alone can never have.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,345
    Ratings:
    +11,174
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    First of all, I didn't say anything about you or anyone else showing us God. Secondly, why are you assuming that I'm "blind" and that I cannot "see"?
     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,345
    Ratings:
    +11,174
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    I have no interest in doing as such.
     
  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,345
    Ratings:
    +11,174
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    And exactly how is that you supposedly know that?
     
  19. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,238
    Ratings:
    +4,078
    Religion:
    Guess
    And? Should God be interested in doing as such? Why or why not?
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,345
    Ratings:
    +11,174
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    If God demands belief, yes.
     
Loading...