1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured For Christians: What is Paradise? Is it Heaven?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Deeje, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,389
    Ratings:
    +8,094
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Jesus promised a man dying alongside of him, who expressed faith in him by asking to be remembered when Jesus came into his Kingdom:You will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43) Where would the man be? Would that Paradise be located in heaven, on earth, or at some intermediate location where humans await judgment?

    Our first parents once lived in Paradise. The Bible tells us that “God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. . . . And God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it.” (Genesis 2:8, 15) When those words were translated into Greek, the word “garden” was rendered pa·raʹdei·sos, from which came the English word “paradise.”

    Just as a couple would enlarge their home when they have more children, so our first parents were expected to expand Paradise beyond the borders of Eden as the human family grew. God told them: “Fill the earth and subdue it.” (Genesis 1:28)

    The Creator’s purpose, then, was for humans to live and bear children in Paradise here on earth. They would live forever in an earthly garden with no need for cemeteries. The earth was to become the permanent home for all mankind.....we were created to live on a beautiful earth. There was no natural cause of death ever mentioned until disobedience robbed them of their paradise home.

    Has God’s purpose changed? Do we now have the hope of going to heaven instead of remaining on a paradise earth, as God originally intended.....?

    What are your thoughts? Where is the "paradise" that Jesus promised to the man who was hung alongside of him? Please use the scriptures for your response....
     
    #1 Deeje, Jun 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    38,747
    Ratings:
    +4,588
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Stretch it out so that neanderthals might be able to get a clue.

    For what I am doing today, you will be with me in Paradise.

    Amen!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,568
    Ratings:
    +6,235
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    All I've got to say is thank God that all of the people who have ever been born are not still living on this earth!
     
    #3 Katzpur, Jun 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    616
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    my concern is this:

    the world population has tripled since i was born

    if people didn’t die, where would they all live on this already overcrowded planet?
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,389
    Ratings:
    +8,094
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    This is a little short sighted IMO, leaving God out of the picture. Did he give us procreative abilities? Did he tell us to "overfill" the earth? Or when his will was accomplished, and the earth was comfortably "filled", what do you think God might have done?

    Do you think he cannot control his own creation? Is he standing back clueless on how to proceed? (Isaiah 55:11)
    He knows exactly what he is doing....its a shame that so many humans haven't got a clue. We have been experiencing the outworking of his eternal purpose all along.

    All the prophesies in Isaiah are about the conditions we can expect to see when paradise is restored...on earth. Present conditions would make that impossible....but for God, nothing is impossible.

    Isaiah 45:18....
    "For this is what Jehovah says,
    The Creator of the heavens, the true God,
    The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,
    Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited:

    “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else."


    Isaiah 35:1, 6-7 addresses another problem for the even distribution of earth's population.....uninhabitable regions....deserts and wilderness regions....
    "The wilderness and the parched land will exult,
    And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron".

    Humanity will be rid of all the maladies that plague this life....to enjoy the restored paradise.

    "At that time the lame will leap like the deer,
    And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy.

    For waters will burst forth in the wilderness,
    And streams in the desert plain.

    7 The heat-parched ground will become a reedy pool,
    And the thirsty ground springs of water.

    In the lairs where jackals rested,
    There will be green grass and reeds and papyrus."

    Isaiah 65:21-22....

    They will build houses and live in them,
    And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.

    22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
    Nor will they plant for others to eat.
    For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
    And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full."

    Isaiah 35:5-6...

    "At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened,
    And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.

    6 At that time the lame will leap like the deer,
    And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy.

    For waters will burst forth in the wilderness,
    And streams in the desert plain."


    What would it take for the earth to become a paradise, as God first intended?
    God's will to "be done on earth as it is in heaven".....haven't we been praying for this all along?
     
  6. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    616
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    i am glad those thoughts work for you
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,389
    Ratings:
    +8,094
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    They do indeed....and since this thread is clearly for Christians, (and you are not a Christian) why even comment?
    I am sure you believe that humans will sort it all out before they manage to destroy all life on this planet.....I won’t hold my breath though.....OK? It will take a power stronger than man’s greed and stupidity to fix this mess.
     
  8. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    616
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    methinks you are assuming facts not in evidence
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,389
    Ratings:
    +8,094
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    What facts....please explain....
     
  10. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    7,642
    Ratings:
    +4,615
    Religion:
    Christian
    Well, let’s see what the Scriptures say that may relate to this....

    “The desert will blossom”, Isaiah 35:2. That’s almost 20 million sq.mi., or 33% of the land surface, currently hostile, that will be pleasantly inhabitable.
    Then....

    “On the tops of mountains there will be an overflow of food.” Psalms 72:16.

    And....

    “The blessing of Jehovah makes rich”; All your sons will be...taught by Jehovah

    What could that accomplish, I wonder? Discoveries that would be clean & safe, and lead to highly advanced technologies?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    616
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    we sure need to get busy

    let us do a little math:

    assume the birth rate remains constant from here on @ around 1.7%
    (even though, once the earth is a “paradise”, the people would most likely choose to become more fruitful)

    since the death rate would be zero, the population would double every 41 years

    in 100 years, more than 30,000,000,000 people
    in 1000 years more than 117,000,000,000,000,000 people
    in 10000 years more than, umm, it’s way too many

    and it keeps going higher FOREVER
     
  12. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    616
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
     
  13. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    616
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    i just noticed something very subtle in your post:


    Luke 23:43 Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise


    this is from the King James Version
    (this is the version I usually use, since it doesn’t mangle the true intent of the original manuscripts as much as others)


    it seems that you missed an important word. “today”


    does it not appear that that one word would change the entire context and completely eliminate the concept of a future earth?
     
  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    7,642
    Ratings:
    +4,615
    Religion:
    Christian
    Why assume the birth rate would stay the same?
    Since it’s because Jehovah God steps in, that the Earth & mankind both are saved from destruction (Revelation 11:18c ; John 3:16 ; Revelation 21:3-4), and the Earth again becomes so productive (see Scriptures in previous post).... it’s reasonable that He will also control conception rates (as Scriptural accounts of the past reveal), at least until we gain appropriate stellar technology.

    Who knows? That’s all speculation; the Bible is silent on such matters....but does say that more ‘scrolls will be opened.’

    Mankind’s future is bright, but only because of our Heavenly Father Jehovah God’s intervention.

    Take care.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,389
    Ratings:
    +8,094
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Ah...but you have missed the fact that there is a comma in that verse and the original Greek had no punctuation.
    Place the comma in a different place and it changes the whole meaning of the verse. You have to use the rest of scripture to place the comma in the correct place.

    Luke 23:43 RSVCE......"And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

    KJ21..."And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.”

    ESV..."And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Most Bibles just follow suit without determining whether the comma was even in the right place by using the rest of the scriptures to determine what Jesus was saying to the thief hung alongside of him.

    OK, now place the comma after the word "today"....
    NWT...."And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

    So questions need to be asked....
    Was Jesus in Paradise that day? At Matthew 12:40 Jesus said that he was going to be in his tomb for "three days and nights", so was he in paradise/heaven that day? No. He was not resurrected 'that day'.

    It also says in Acts 1:3 that Jesus did not ascend to his Father in heaven for 40 days after his resurrection. So the man could not have been with Jesus in paradise that day.....

    Was paradise heaven? Obviously not because the ones 'chosen' for life in heaven were baptized disciples of Christ who had proven their faith "unto death". They had established a history of faithfulness and obedience to the teachings of their Master. The thief hung alongside Jesus was expressing something new, realizing that Jesus was innocent of the charge against him, but they were not....he expressed belief in Jesus as King of God's Kingdom. This is not a "deathbed conversion" but Jesus telling a repentant man that in paradise he would be resurrected back to life, to try again.

    "Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice
    29 and shall come forth — they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
    (John 5:28-29 KJ21)
    That is a horrible translation because there is no "damnation".

    The NASB renders those verses...
    "Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment." ......which is more in keeping with the original Jewish view of what Jesus said.

    That word translated "damnation" in Greek is "krisis" which is usually translated "judgment" (as in the NASB). So there is judgment for the unjust who may have done "bad deeds" in ignorance, (Acts 24:15) but once they are resurrected, there is an opportunity for those ones to be educated and to conform to God's righteous standards. Theirs is not a judgment on past sins because "the wages of sin is death", hence those who have died are 'freed from their past sins' (Romans 6:7).....and Jesus' sacrifice guarantees them a resurrection.

    There is only 'everlasting life' or 'everlasting death' in God's arrangement, because there is no conscious existence after death (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)....except for the "chosen ones", who will rule with Christ in heaven. These ones are resurrected "first". (Revelation 20:6)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    616
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    let me think about how much that makes sense to me.

    ok, I thought about it

    the answer is: none

    you are claiming that Jesus, who was literally near death, speaking to a man next to him, literally near death is finding it necessary to clarify that he is speaking to him on that PARTICULAR day? like “hey man, I’m speaking to you today, not yesterday”. perhaps because Jesus thought the thief may be delirious, and not realize when he was being spoken to?

    i hate to say this, but the argument seems to be complete rubbish
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,389
    Ratings:
    +8,094
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    That is for you to evaluate for yourself.
    If you are not a Christian, what do you care anyway?

    You seem to lack knowledge of the times and idioms in the language of the day. It was like an oath made that day to assure someone of the fulfilment of a promise. Jesus was making such a promise.

    The Bible tells us where the comma should go. Your opinion is duly noted.....and dismissed.
     
  18. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    616
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    YOU stated that the original Greek had NO punctuation

    therefore, one cannot just rewrite the original to fit their false interpretation of the word of God

    you seem to lack any desire to see outside the things you think are true, which may very possibly NOT be so

    what is the NWT translation anyway? I never heard of it

    and I am forced to call out your very poor behavior toward me

    this is the second time, you just make false assumptions about me, and then place a label on me in order to dismiss what I say
    this is an evil tactic employed by people who want to control others and make others see the world the way they do, WITHOUT a dialogue (similar to Nazis and republicans)

    furthermore, I gave you a perfectly valid argument why the misused punctuation is completely senseless, but you wish to not even entertain the thought

    my God had a statement for such attitudes, I will quote it here:

    "Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not."

    those words are NOT mine
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,389
    Ratings:
    +8,094
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    OK, Jeremiah Ames....I give up. Under your religious persuasion you have listed "Absolutely Not".....so please enlighten us as to what you espouse to be....are you a Christian or not? A simple yes or no will suffice.
    This thread was for Christians......so are you?

    Your reference to "my God" is ambiguous, so could you identify your God for us? Is it Yahweh of the Jews, or "the Lord God" of Christendom? Or none of the above....?

    Any assumptions I have made were based on your silence.
     
  20. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2021
    Messages:
    616
    Ratings:
    +472
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    so, under your rulebook, you cannot respond to my perfectly good argument without diverting the discussion to my character

    I don’t have to tell you my religion in order to have a discussion about the Bible
    one does not need to offer a religious point of view to discuss the Bible

    but now your new comment opens a door to more dialogue, but then if I choose to question what you say and offer my thoughts, you will just dismiss me or divert to some other topic, if you’re not comfortable

    for instance, requiring me to identify if my God is Yahweh of the Jews, or the Lord God of Christiandom? Or none of the above?

    what could prompt such an unusual question?

    when you give it some thought, is that not a very very odd question?

    for one thing, it implies something nonsensical. there are two possible Gods to choose from or none at all. Is that the way you see it?

    also, you continue to assume things that are clearly not correct. I can say that with complete confidence, since your ASSUMPTIONS are about me.

    tell me who the God of the Jews is.

    then tell me who the Lord God of Christiandom is.
    if that is even possible, since there are probably 10,000,000 (exaggerated a little bit) different sects of Christiandom

    as you have noted, under religious persuasion, I wrote absolutely not.
    that probably gives a bit of a clue about me, but leaves the door open enough for people to make all kinds of erroneous assumptions
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
Loading...