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Featured For Christians: What is Paradise? Is it Heaven?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Deeje, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    Also good - but does not that fact that Hell is a temporary condition and that all sins - save one - will eventually be forgiven a comfort and offer peace?
     
  2. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    yes, if true

    is it possible that all people are all already forgiven?

    john 1:29. John the Baptist says behold the one who takes away the sins of the world

    this looks like a done deal to me. the sins are taken away. for the who world.

    then john 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

    straight from the Lord. He gave His flesh for the life of the world. It’s done. It’s over.

    what about Luke 23:34? Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."

    these were the ones abused and murdered the Lord.

    but they don’t even know what they’re doing, yet they are forgiven.

    doesn’t forgiveness sound like a done deal? straight from the mouth of the Lord. nothing to be done by anyone. no church attendance needed. no mysterious words need to be uttered. everyone is forgiven of everything always, no questions asked.

    there are too many other verses supporting this throughout the Bible.

    but

    BUT

    there are plenty of verses that speak of God’s kingdom, or the kingdom of heaven, or eternal life. all the same thing.

    no one is granted that automatically. read John 6:51 again, from above.

    the Lord, again, tells us, “If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever”

    those are the ones who will live forever.

    that is the ticket to heaven.



    why would you desire a heaven that has all the same people in it that we have in this world? all the narcissists, the greedy people, the murderers, the adulterous?

    and why would someone change their personality? if they had a life of evil on earth, THAT IS their life. to remove it from them, would deprive them of what they “live” for. it is not going to change AFTER they leave this world.

    doesn’t the Bible tell us that we must make our choice while here?

    wouldn’t a loving, all powerful God, want the best for everyone? even the evil people?

    perhaps He has a special place for the narcissistic. a special place for the adulterers. etc

    and it sure wouldn’t be heaven. that’s the Lord’s home, and He cannot be around evil.
     
  3. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    hey guy

    i just got back from a trip to walmart, and while I was away I was thinking about what you said

    i came to the conclusion that i made a long post describing what I perceive regarding heaven/hell, and then I realized that what you said feels like the same thing

    bottom line is, I understand what you said and agree with you

    i think what we are both saying is that all people will be forgiven and all people will go to their paradise/heaven
     
  4. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    Yep - all - save those who commit the "unpardonable sin" - which won't be many.

    All sins - save one - will be forgiven. I believe that is the truth.
     
  5. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    I can’t disagree with that, since it is written

    i just don’t know what it would look like ?
     
  6. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    What what would look like?
     
  7. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    the one sin

    i read the verses, but cannot visualize how it would look
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Its a gift, but one we must qualify for. It is free but not without conditions. Go back to Eden....Life was a gift....but continuing life was conditional. It required that Adam and his wife remain obedient to God's commands. Failure to do so meant death.

    Is it? Was that bread to be offered to all....or just to the ones who were Jesus' tried and true disciples? "The world" in this context I believe meant that this applies no matter what nation a Christian lives in. (Acts 10:34-35) It also covers all those who are at present "sleeping in death", and those from 'all tribes, nations and peoples'. ...the ones described in Revelation 7:9-10 who will survive the great tribulation that is coming. (Revelation 7:13-14)

    Who was it that Jesus asked God to forgive? The religious leaders who orchestrated the murder of an innocent man? Hardly. They knew exactly what they were doing, even threatening the political position of Pilate himself to get their way. NO! He was asking God to forgive the ones who were ignorant about who he really was ...the ones who drove the nails into his flesh and hung him up to die....that is who Jesus asked forgiveness for because they truly were ignorant.

    There are many questions asked....conditions apply and always have. Those verses do not cancel out the conditions. One has to be a disciple of Christ and also to be practicing all that Christ taught to the best of their ability. Matthew 7:21-23 reinforces that "many" are going to expect acceptance from Jesus as one of his disciples....but he is going to reject them outright...why?.....because they were not "doing the will of the Father". He calls them "workers of lawlessness".

    Not necessarily. Descriptions of the kingdom are sometimes defined by time. e.g. in Luke 17:20-21...
    "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
    (KJV)
    Who is Jesus talking to?
    When he said that the Kingdom of God is "within" you, what did he mean?

    Was the Kingdom "within" the hearts of those whom Jesus condemned as the worst of hypocrites and of whom God said "their hearts are far removed from me"?

    How do other translation render that verse?

    NIV..."Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst."

    NASB..."Now He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, and He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs that can be observed; 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

    See the difference? When he said that the kingdom of God is "in their midst" he was drawing attention to the fact that the designated King of God's kingdom, as God's representative on earth, was standing right there in their midst and they failed to recognize him.

    "The kingdom of the son of his love"...."the good news of the kingdom"...."thy kingdom come".....we need to know what the kingdom is because it was the theme of Jesus' entire ministry.

    True...only those who partake of the bread and wine as symbols of Christ's sacrifice will go to heaven....but these are not the only ones who will be saved. Not all of God's worshippers are heaven bound because they were never promised heaven....they were offered "Paradise".....a place on earth, cleansed and restored back to God's original purpose for mankind. We have a reason for being here....and that purpose to our being here never went away....it just got sidetracked.

    All good points. We are heading for the end of the age....the time for Christ's return (Matthew 24L37-39) and the greatest tribulation in the history of the world (Matthew 24:21).....we may have already started down that track with all that is happening.Never have we seen son many unprecedented catastrophes all at once.

    Nowhere in the Bible are we taught about immortal souls. We are a "soul" according to scripture so when we take out last breath, the "soul" that is us dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) It is God who determines who comes back in the resurrection.
    As Jesus says in John 5:28-29...
    "Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
    All the dead are called from the same place....their tombs. As Paul confirmed as a Jewish belief...
    " I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust."

    So the righteous or just, are raised to life.....but the unjust are raised to face a period of judgment, not for the deeds they did whilst in this world, but for what they do in the new one. At their death they have paid sin's wages, and Christ's sacrifice offers them a chance to put things right. Many of the dead may never have known about God or his Christ and so they will receive an education. But those in "Gehenna" will never be raised at all. God is the only one who knows who has experienced the "second death", a death from which there is no resurrection.

    You got that right.....humans are given every opportunity to prove themselves to be obedient to God's commands. It is all he has ever asked of his intelligent creation. Those who want to do things their way, will have no place at all.
     
  9. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    My understanding of the "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" or the "unpardonable sin" is for someone to receive an undeniable witness of the truth - like hearing God's voice, seeing an angel, watching the Lord Jesus Christ perform miracles and fulfill prophecy - and still decide to turn against the truth and willfully rebel against God.

    It is my opinion that a very small number of people will ever get the opportunity to be guilty of this particular sin.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    A good example is Judas Iscariot.....he was a chosen apostle as a constant companion in a group with Jesus for three and half years, and saw his miracles, even participating in miracles using the holy spirit by the mention of Jesus' name, but who willfully and greedily betrayed his Master for 30 pieces of silver. There could be no forgiveness for that.
     
  11. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    that was wonderful

    thanks for helping me see that much more clearly

    i agree with what you say here
     
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