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Flaw in Assertion of God's Existence

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Cacafire, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    Gotcha. This is actually what Christianity is. All of those silly Christians don't even know what their own religion is about. It's a good thing you're here to teacht them the truth about their own religion, RS. :rolleyes:
     
  2. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    Bare theism doesn't have the resources to answer you, perhaps, but the Christian version of theism does. On the Christian version of theism, there's this little thing called sin. Taken cognitively, we might say that, although humans are designed to perceive God, that part of their cognitive apparatus responsible for those perceptions are severely (although incompletely) damaged. As a result, we perceive God but we do so wrongly.

    There's also an affective element to sin. That is, humans are not inclined to submit to God, preferring to remain autonomous. As a result, even when they correctly perceive God, they explain them away or tame them through philosophy. Hence idolatry.

    Thus, on the Christian version of theism, it's possible BOTH for humans to be designed to perceive God, AND the majority of the time, those perceptions are either "out of focus" or explained away.
     
  3. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    wow.
    All that to say that those who do not/can not perceive God are brain damaged.
    Bet that goes over well with atheists.
     
  4. lew0049

    lew0049 CWebb

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    The points you make are definitely logical thoughts (which can be rare on rf); however, it seems though that your assertion is not taking something into consideration that is central to christianity. You stated:
    There is a, to the best of my knowledge, christian assertion that Because God's existence may be outside of the universe, that science can not ever verify his non-existence or existence, as science is limited to the observable universe.

    This assertion relies upon the scientific observation that an object separated from a system, can not be accessed from within the system. It is true, and thus christians are correctly using scientific arguments to further their cause.

    But, this same assertion ignores the obvious result of that same scientific principle. If an object is outside of a system, then not only can it not be accessed by something inside the system, but it can not access anything inside the system as well.

    The laws that govern science are limited to strictly dealing with natural phenomena; therefore, testing of something supernatural (which christians believe) would be void. Correct? Plus, this is also supposing another system is governed by the same laws as this system, which would be impossible to conclude unless another system is scientifically found.
    a. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
    b. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
    c. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
     
  5. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's quite the party! Actually, "brain damaged" (if you insist on that way of characterizing what I said) applies to absolutely everyone, whether they perceive God or not. Romans 1:18-25 is the basis for what I'm claiming here, and you'll note that the tone of that passage is quite moral. That is, in the final analysis, scripture says that humans are all morally culpable for their unbelief.
     
  6. lew0049

    lew0049 CWebb

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    I think you contradicate yourself a little here: The brain, as well as the senses, are only good at percieving material reality....And god would not have needed to turn himself into a man in order to get us to figure it out.. Aside from that though, I don't think we are designed to "perceive" God so to speak - simply b/c using the word perceive is too vague and ambigious
     
  7. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    a moral tone?

    Does not apply to me though.
    For I do not subscribe to that line of theological thinking.
     
  8. lew0049

    lew0049 CWebb

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    When you say "designed to perceive" God, are you talking about our sense of morality - law of human nature. If you are then I completely agree.
     
  9. logician

    logician Well-Known Member

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    Likewise, no god would have go to the trouble to do the barbaric thing of committing suicide to save us from how he "created" us in the first place - a very illogical god.
     
  10. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    I see your name is purple now, and from this comment, I wonder: Are you a theist, and, if so, have you always been or is it a recent thing? Just curious.
     
  11. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    I have always been a theist.
    I do not know why my name has changed colours again.
    It was purple for the longest time, then went red for a couple days then after they got the kinks worked out from the last major update/upgrade my name went black and has stayed black till now.

    So if it is something I did, I do not know what.
     
  12. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    What does the colour imply?
     
  13. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    I have no idea.
    The first time it was purple was because I bought the colour from the store.
    The rest of the colour changes came about on its own and coincide with upgrades or other such site improvements.
     
  14. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    Generally, purple means that you're a member of the theists only group.
     
  15. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    That's weird. I always took you for an atheist. This obviously isn't the place for it, but I'd love to know what fashion of theist you consider yourself. Maybe in another thread or a PM?
     
  16. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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  17. Rolling_Stone

    Rolling_Stone Well-Known Member

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  18. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    The poisoning of the well with the first sentence is rather revealing, don't you think?

    I will try to ignore the obvious bias and definite agenda of the author, but it will likely take some time.
    Having to throw up every other paragraph means it will will take a awhile to read.
     
    #118 Mestemia, Jul 25, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2008
  19. Rolling_Stone

    Rolling_Stone Well-Known Member

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    I certainly hope so! :beach:
     
  20. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    Unfortunately, you're the "well".
     
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