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Flaw in Assertion of God's Existence

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Cacafire, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

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    There is a, to the best of my knowledge, christian assertion that Because God's existence may be outside of the universe, that science can not ever verify his non-existence or existence, as science is limited to the observable universe.

    This assertion relies upon the scientific observation that an object separated from a system, can not be accessed from within the system. It is true, and thus christians are correctly using scientific arguments to further their cause.

    But, this same assertion ignores the obvious result of that same scientific principle. If an object is outside of a system, then not only can it not be accessed by something inside the system, but it can not access anything inside the system as well.

    It is strange the christian would use a scientific principle to justify the ignoring of science in order to asssert the existence of god. Furthermore, it is also strange that the christian would accept this scientific principle in one scenario, but flat out reject it in another.

    Thus, this constitutes a flaw in the christian assertion that god lies outside the universe. The christian, if he or she wishes to use science to assert god's existence, must take into account the whole of science, and the whole of science would have the christian admit that god is, if outside the universe, completely impotent.

    Note, that there is nothing wrong with the assertion that god may be outside the universe. He very well may be. But the same scientific principle that would allow theh christian conclusion would also have to be followed to realize that a god outside the system is impotent.

    This is the flaw in the christian assertion of God's existence by virtue of being outside the universe. All discussion welcomed.
     
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  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Can you provide your source for this scientific principle?
     
  3. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

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    If an object outside of the system can not be accessed by anything inside the system, then neither can it access anything inside the system.

    If this scientific principle is not true, however, then of course it doesn't matter if god be outside the universe. Science would be able to discern god. There would be nowhere for the christian to hide.
     
  4. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Fully agree but I think you can go further.

    If God (meaning God and all of its potentially observable effects) are sealed off from the universe, there can be literally no justification for belief in God because there can never be any connection between a person's belief and reality. Such a connection would imply interaction which is denied by the seal.

    On the other hand, if God or some of its effects are inside the universe then it must be possible for us to eventually detect God. Thus faith is revealed to either be unreasonable when it is not born of this detection or equivalent to other kinds of belief (in science, in existence e.t.c.) Consequently, atheism is revealed to be reasonable for anybody who has not (yet) experienced God.

    However, I think your argument is logical/philosophical and not scientific. If something and its effects are outside of a system then clearly that something is unable to affect that system. That is derived from logical axioms.
     
  5. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

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    It's also empirically verified.
     
  6. Rolling_Stone

    Rolling_Stone Well-Known Member

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    Uh, it appears that your concept of the divine is rather primitive. The entirety of your post is rebuked by either one of two words: "panentheism" or "infinity."
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I'll take that as a "No".
     
  8. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Neither the panentheistic God nor the infinite God is outside of the universe and the Christian God is not panentheistic.

    That is true but I'm fairly sure that plenty of the people who invoke it won't recognize it as empirically verified or scientific. Recognising it has basis outside of science is useful to avoid the whole sticky mess that comes from plenty of people believing that religion and science have separate non-overlapping domains with the existence of God being firmly in the grip of religion.

    I also thought you meant something other by scientific principle than "empirically verified".

    Quick Question: You call yourself an "Atheist Transcendental". I was wondering, if you don't mind, what you meant by that?
     
    #8 Fluffy, Jul 17, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2008
  9. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

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    There is no such flaw with pantheism or infinity. I never suggested their was. Since I was referring to the christian, I was referring to the christian god.

    But makes the flaw no less apparent or even concealable.
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Of course it does. You manufacture scientific principles. The flaw is yours.
     
  11. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    I am part of Creation, but I am not part of the Creator.

    The Creator is Itself, and His Creation is only a product of its Creation.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  12. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

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    Thank you, popeye. Your two second inspirational words has shown me the error of my ways. I realize that god is real now. The christian god too. I am forever in your debt.
     
  13. UnityNow101

    UnityNow101 Well-Known Member

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    Science tells us that the Universe was created out of nothing, or was created out of the void. Before the Big Bang, there was nothing but a super-heated atom which decided, for some unknown reason, to burst outward, which in turn happened to create everything that we see today. In some way or another, we are all an extension of that void, or nothingness, which traces back to God. We are all extensions of God just as much as anything that has ever been created.
     
  14. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    So a programmer cannot influence the world he programmed because he is outside that world?
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Have you ever heard of String Theory? M-Theory? Have you ever even considered educating yourself before babbling about what "science tells us"?
     
  16. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    When something is outside of something else, in the sense that is meant in this thread, then it is undetectable from the inside. If we cannot detect God because he is outside of the universe then this implies that God cannot affect the universe.

    On the other hand, we can detect the programmer via the effects they have on the program they are writing.

    Can you quote a paper that demonstrates this view to be the consensus amongst the scientific community? Can you quote a scientific journal that advances this theory?
     
  17. kmkemp

    kmkemp Active Member

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    You are presupposing that a creator could not make man with less sensory abilities than the creator has. Even as far as assumptions go, that seems to be a very bad one.
     
  18. Cacafire

    Cacafire Member

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    Unitynow101, please stay on topic.

    mestemia, a computer programmer influences the program through the keyboard, which interfaces with the hardware, which interfaces with the cpu, which creates the program.

    To repeat: Christianity is using a scientific, or at least, logical principle in saying that god is outside the universe, and thus can not be accessed. They must then accept the counterpart logical principle that god is impotent and can not access the universe as he is apart from it. To deny this would be to accept logic in instance and deny it in another.

    Thus, a flaw.
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Please read the following v-e-r-y ... v-e-r-y ... s-l-o-w-l-y: repeating something incessantly doesn't make it true.
     
  20. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    So the NPCs in Diablo 2 know that we are there playing?
     
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