Finding excuses to hate Muslims?

[Tomorrows_Child]

TC -

Okay, so you're one of the "Islam is in the scriptures" sort of Muslim. Fair enough, some Muslims take that route and others take the "Islam is in the behaviors of Muslims route". I hope you're not one of the "I'll choose either definition in the moment, as it suits my argument" sort of Muslim.

The Quran teaches that the husband can basically rape his wife at will. The Quran teaches how inheritances are to be divided in favor of men. The Quran teaches how a man can have many wives, and how to handle that. That's just off the top of my head. Muhammad, teaches us that even though he claimed to be creating a timeless religion, he was okay to marry a young girl, not even 10.

As for the decline of Christians in the ME, there are many sources for this information, I found this one with about a minute on google:

http://us.icej.org/tragic-decline-middle-east-christianity

My hate? I don't have any hate. I have criticisms and I have concerns.

Which question of yours did I skip? It wasn't intentional. Is it about Muslims being closer to God? If that's the one, can't you see how that has historically led to supremacist-driven conquest and "us vs. them" thinking? You say you're not allowed to treat non-Muslims badly, but Muslims murdered about 80 MILLION Hindus over the course of centuries.. because they were Hindus!

As for Israel, we can jump in if you want to - you can start by answering my question about why Muslims don't act charitably towards Palestinians? Isn't charity supposed to be one of Islam's best qualities?

The Quran doesn't teach any of those things, I guarantee you you haven't even read the Quran. If you did, you clearly wouldn't say that and there clearly wouldn't be women in the western world converting to it. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read, wow, you really need to improve your knowledge in that area.

Now, onto the article that you posted, it just gives statistical information on Christian populations in various countries, so what? Do you now agree tha tthe Jewish population has increased? Considering you are now only talking about Christians.

Muslims murdered 80 millions hindus? Ok, this is simply getting out of hand. I've put forward fact, you have put forward biased, bigoted opinion. If you would like an intellectual discussion we can carry on if you don't thats fine.

 

[LuisDantas]

The Quran doesn't teach any of those things, I guarantee you you haven't even read the Quran. If you did, you clearly wouldn't say that and there clearly wouldn't be women in the western world converting to it. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read, wow, you really need to improve your knowledge in that area.

You are being preposterous.

 

[LuisDantas]

Because I asked you the question considering you replied to me.

Plus that poster is a simple instigator and never has a discussion but rather enjoys simply putting forward his own opinions and nothing else. I've tried having many discussions with him and he ignores any point I make and has done so for a long time. There is no point in me discussing anything any further with him.

What the heck. You must me mistaking me for someone else. I am still waiting for a reply from you, btw. When and what did I ever refuse to answer you directly?

 

[Gharib]

You are being preposterous.

You mean it is very inconvenient to you to hear such words.

What he said is right, why are western women becoming Muslim if Islam treats them so badly. How logical is it that you'd go from total freedom to having all your rights taken away and forced into covering yourself??

 

[LuisDantas]

You mean it is very inconvenient to you to hear such words.

In a sense that is true. I like serious, commited discussion where people stand by what they say.

What he said is right,

Actually, it was an insinuation, which attempted to suggest something without taking the responsibility of commiting to it.

By design, it falls short of being "right" or even "wrong".

Is the implication accurate, though? Is it meaningful?

why are western women becoming Muslim if Islam treats them so badly.

One would need to actually look at it, of course.

I am not aware of the actual numbers. You are welcome to bring any if you happen to have them. I assume that since we are talking about hundreds of milliions of people, one can find very odd behaviors if one pursues hard enough.

But that, of course, is a tangent. Particularly in Western societies that have a hard-earned if recent tradition of accepting that basic dignity includes certain women rights and won't let go of them quite so easily.

Incidentally, since you are so vehement, would you have anything to say about the various denounces of abuses of women rights in Islamic societies?

How logical is it that you'd go from total freedom to having all your rights taken away and forced into covering yourself??

Where and how often did that happen?

 

[icehorse]

The Quran doesn't teach any of those things, I guarantee you you haven't even read the Quran. If you did, you clearly wouldn't say that and there clearly wouldn't be women in the western world converting to it. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read, wow, you really need to improve your knowledge in that area.

Now, onto the article that you posted, it just gives statistical information on Christian populations in various countries, so what? Do you now agree tha tthe Jewish population has increased? Considering you are now only talking about Christians.

Muslims murdered 80 millions hindus? Ok, this is simply getting out of hand. I've put forward fact, you have put forward biased, bigoted opinion. If you would like an intellectual discussion we can carry on if you don't thats fine.

If I go to the trouble to find the passages in the Quran that say those things, what will you say?
If I go to the trouble to find citations for Islam's many-centuries long conquest of Hindus, what will you say?

If I find you actual facts, will you acknowledge them? I am not lying about anything I've said. For you to call me a liar seems very much against what Islam teaches. It seems to me that perhaps I know more about Islam than you do?

 

[بِسْم الله]

I think that's an important distinction to make. Unfortunately, I think many people (not you, though) fail to make that distinction.

That's like saying I bash Christianity not Christians. How can I bash the concepts that you submit to without bashing you as well

 

[بِسْم الله]

Also the bible tells women to cover their hair

 

[LuisDantas]

That's like saying I bash Christianity not Christians. How can I bash the concepts that you submit to without bashing you as well

By understanding that people are owned a certain core of dignity and respect, even while proposing ideas and beliefs that may not deserve so much.

 

[بِسْم الله]

By understanding that people are owned a certain core of dignity and respect, even while proposing ideas and beliefs that may not deserve so much.

Well put. That works in theory but in reality if you dislike the ideas of someone else you will also dislike that person. And if you don't dislike them you will assess them as being too feeble minded to be held accountable for their beliefs. Either way it's a bash

 

[LuisDantas]

Well put. That works in theory but in reality if you dislike the ideas of someone else you will also dislike that person.

That is certainly a temptation that one has to confront. At least if the other side is perceived as not-quite-human, as so easily happens time and again.

That is one reason why it is so vital to dispell that danger by reminding ourselves often that mistaken beliefs are a very separate thing from mishappen human dignity. We all must strive constantly to accept that our challengers are full persons with names, families and a nature not unlike our own.

And if you don't dislike them you will assess them as being too feeble minded to be held accountable for their beliefs. Either way it's a bash

I expect better than that from myself and, frankly, from anyone else.

 

[بِسْم الله]

I like your take on the issue. You make some strong points but again I would maintain that people's ideas and their persons are the same entity. My desire to combine the two serves the same purpose as your desire to spectate them. During war the first idea they push on the soldiers is we aren't killing them were killing their idea. Your proposal leaves the door open to this sort of philosophy

 

[icehorse]

One underrated skill in the 21st century is to "unlearn" what was previously learned. There are many things I believed very strongly in the past that I no longer believe. Letting go of a belief is not the end of the world.

Many spiritual teachers tell us that "detachment" is a key to enlightenment.

 

[paarsurrey]

Finding excuses to hate Muslims?

All human being must be respected and loved.
Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

I like your take on the issue. You make some strong points but again I would maintain that people's ideas and their persons are the same entity. My desire to combine the two serves the same purpose as your desire to spectate them. During war the first idea they push on the soldiers is we aren't killing them were killing their idea. Your proposal leaves the door open to this sort of philosophy

Thanks. I appreciate the feeling.

Don't you think that people learn from each other and may at least potentially, some of the time, learn better than whatever mistaken ideas they might hold at any given time?

That alone would be (and is) reason enough to respect people even if we utterly despise what they believe in.

 

[Marsh]

That's like saying I bash Christianity not Christians. How can I bash the concepts that you submit to without bashing you as well

Christians often say "hate the sin, not the sinner." Perhaps this helps?

 

[Marsh]

Finding excuses to hate Muslims?

All human being must be respected and loved.
Regards

Surely there are exceptions? Those who wantonly take the lives of non-combatants, who turn women and girls into slaves, who hack to death those who don't share their religious ideals, such monsters deserve no ones respect.

 

[بِسْم الله]

Thanks. I appreciate the feeling.

Don't you think that people learn from each other and may at least potentially, some of the time, learn better than whatever mistaken ideas they might hold at any given time?

That alone would be (and is) reason enough to respect people even if we utterly despise what they believe in.

I think we have a human obligation to treat others well regardless of how we view their beliefs. It is a common tactic of the "peace-keepers" to wage war on an idea not a people. If you can get people to view others under this paradigm it becomes easy to fight them without consideration for the people. It's kind of like we have a moral obligation to destroy your barbaric belief system and it doesn't matter who dies. The ends justify the means type of thinking. We are saying essentially the same think but have a different view of what contributed to it

 

[LuisDantas]

Surely there are exceptions? Those who wantonly take the lives of non-combatants, who turn women and girls into slaves, who hack to death those who don't share their religious ideals, such monsters deserve no ones respect.

One can and arguably should strive to respect the plight of the misguided person who is buried inside such awful circunstances.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think we have a human obligation to treat others well regardless of how we view their beliefs. It is a common tactic of the "peace-keepers" to wage war on an idea not a people. If you can get people to view others under this paradigm it becomes easy to fight them without consideration for the people.

I take it that by "waging war on an idea" here you mean actual use of lethal weapons as opposed to debate and ideological clash?

It's kind of like we have a moral obligation to destroy your barbaric belief system and it doesn't matter who dies. The ends justify the means type of thinking. We are saying essentially the same think but have a different view of what contributed to it

That may well be the case.

Would you happen to have anything to say about Badshah Khan?