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Fighting the Oligarchy

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Context: IMO, most of what ails us can be traced back to capitalism run by Oligarchs. I don’t think I really have a beef with capitalism. But I do have a BIG beef with capitalism run by Oligarchs. All of the following problems are created or exacerbated by the Oligarchy:

- fouling and pillaging of the environment
- massive income and wealth inequality
- a radically unfair taxation system
- a healthcare system ravaged by profiteering
- a poor education system
- a bloated and species threatening military complex
- an unhealthy food production and distribution system
- unsustainable farming, ranching, and fishing practices
- a largely corrupt media system
- a deliberately misinformed and credulous population

I might have missed some big ones, but this list seems sufficiently terrible.

So first, you might disagree with the premise?

If you largely agree, how can we fight back against the Oligarchy?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I basically agree with the list but note that there are some who are rich and powerful enough to be one of the de-facto rulers but who choose not to be.

As to fighting back, violence never works. If it succeeds there is a new set of rulers more brutal than the old set which can also be followed by a counter-revolution with the first set back in power, uglier than ever.

I think first there needs to be a practical ideal. This is something much better than what we have now but which also understands human nature and does not let idealism override the practical.

Then I think people need to start talking about it and trying to live it so that others see it and agree it's possible. That's hard given the current structure but I think it's possible in some areas.

Taking the 'food distribution' part of your list, I volunteer at an organization that does two main kinds of action. The first is to gather high quality food from supermarkets that is close to the pull dates and would otherwise be thrown away. Then it gets distributed to organizations and individuals who need it but can't afford it. The second main arm does the same for clothing - allowing people on the bottom to have a normal shopping experience and being treated as valuable human beings no matter what their background happens to be. As long as we can avoid the "superior us helping poor you" mode instead living "we are all one and we automatically help those who need help" people respond.

This kind of action starts making visible that there is an alternative to today's dominant paradigm .
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Fight the oligarchy by voting for the candidates who best represent your views.
It's why I throw away my vote on Libertarians 90+% of the time.
Doesn't work though.

Note....
Looking over the OP, I think I'd have more of a fight with him than the oligarchy.
You sound like a real red blanket baby!
(It's an obscure term for a natural born commie.)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Context: IMO, most of what ails us can be traced back to capitalism run by Oligarchs. I don’t think I really have a beef with capitalism. But I do have a BIG beef with capitalism run by Oligarchs. All of the following problems are created or exacerbated by the Oligarchy:

- fouling and pillaging of the environment
- massive income and wealth inequality
- a radically unfair taxation system
- a healthcare system ravaged by profiteering
- a poor education system
- a bloated and species threatening military complex
- an unhealthy food production and distribution system
- unsustainable farming, ranching, and fishing practices
- a largely corrupt media system
- a deliberately misinformed and credulous population

I might have missed some big ones, but this list seems sufficiently terrible.

So first, you might disagree with the premise?

If you largely agree, how can we fight back against the Oligarchy?
I would think a Citizens Union or Lobby would be the most effective way to go about it.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Context: IMO, most of what ails us can be traced back to capitalism run by Oligarchs. I don’t think I really have a beef with capitalism. But I do have a BIG beef with capitalism run by Oligarchs. All of the following problems are created or exacerbated by the Oligarchy:

- fouling and pillaging of the environment
- massive income and wealth inequality
- a radically unfair taxation system
- a healthcare system ravaged by profiteering
- a poor education system
- a bloated and species threatening military complex
- an unhealthy food production and distribution system
- unsustainable farming, ranching, and fishing practices
- a largely corrupt media system
- a deliberately misinformed and credulous population

I might have missed some big ones, but this list seems sufficiently terrible.

So first, you might disagree with the premise?

If you largely agree, how can we fight back against the Oligarchy?
We've had a decent amount of checks and balances but they've been eroding for a long time and current administration is taking full advantage. Trump said as much when he was running, it's not looking good. Now US has a president who indirectly over ruled a court order. There are more problems with what he did and how than just being bias. I would start praying if he started selling off state properties.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
We've had a decent amount of checks and balances but they've been eroding for a long time and current administration is taking full advantage. Trump said as much when he was running, it's not looking good. Now US has a president who indirectly over ruled a court order. There are more problems with what he did and how than just being bias. I would start praying if he started selling off state properties.

I'm usually not a big proponent of unions but I do notice the increasing instances where businesses and corporations tend to start taking advantage of workers more and more. Longer hours, mandatory overtime, manipulated pay ie, commissions, tipping, piecework, mileage, Etc.

Sometimes I think there is a limited need for a comeback of Union run businesses, but not such that it forces businesses and corporations to close their doors for good leaving everyone a loser.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
We've had a decent amount of checks and balances but they've been eroding for a long time and current administration is taking full advantage. Trump said as much when he was running, it's not looking good. Now US has a president who indirectly over ruled a court order. There are more problems with what he did and how than just being bias. I would start praying if he started selling off state properties.
Sigh, any pardon is over ruling a court order, get over it.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Context: IMO, most of what ails us can be traced back to capitalism run by Oligarchs. I don’t think I really have a beef with capitalism. But I do have a BIG beef with capitalism run by Oligarchs. All of the following problems are created or exacerbated by the Oligarchy:

- fouling and pillaging of the environment
- massive income and wealth inequality
- a radically unfair taxation system
- a healthcare system ravaged by profiteering
- a poor education system
- a bloated and species threatening military complex
- an unhealthy food production and distribution system
- unsustainable farming, ranching, and fishing practices
- a largely corrupt media system
- a deliberately misinformed and credulous population

I might have missed some big ones, but this list seems sufficiently terrible.

So first, you might disagree with the premise?

If you largely agree, how can we fight back against the Oligarchy?

"Fighting the Oligarchy" won't be something that can be achieved in one stroke but will require a constant effort to push it back and resist. we are talking a lot of time and effort here and that's something to keep in mind. There is a lot I could say here, but its ultimately going to be a reflection of my own views and could be less than useful. Rather than give any specific answers I will try to highlight some of the practical issues as "tool kit" for starting out and let you reach your own conclusions about what you want to do. Here's something to keep in mind.

1. The biggest practical problem here is not individual policy areas, but the state itself as a battleground for political change. If the state can be reformed within the scope of democratic institutions, the oligarchy can be replaced peacefully. Its therefore good to be aware of how the institutions work, what different levels of government do and who represents you at each level (e.g. local, state, federal).

If democracy has become so corrupt that its no longer effective, or else was always a sham to begin with, you're going to be forced into wanting to overthrow the system by revolutionary means. Obviously "revolution" isn't something to be taken lightly and I'm not suggesting or inviting you to be "stupid". realistically however, revolution should be at the bottom of the list of prioritises and if it is really that bad it won't be a minority view because the grievances will affect so many people. Given that revolutionary politics challenge us to think about what would stay the same and what would change, they can be intellectually useful- but practically its stupidly dangerous even if you have the best of intentions. revolutions are periods in which people have so little control over the situation, the outcome rarely corresponds to people's intentions, so even if they are good that's not the same as achieving them.

Its worth keeping in mind that reform and revolution are not mutually exclusive and that revolutionary groups can and do participate in the political process to take advantage of the opportunities on offer and to discredit the system as a sham. reformist groups often benefit from revolutionary movements by delivering the same message but in a much more attractive "non-violent" form.

2. Treating the Oligarchy and Capitalism as separate issues is very significant. If Capitalism fundamentally "works" and the Oligarchy is a deformation of Capitalism, the solution is generally going to be to make Capitalism work again. How you define Capitalism as a "working system" also matters because if you say that people pursuing private profit unintentionally produce a social good, the aim remains the social good. However libertarians and objectivists may simply be satisfied with selfishness and the private good as the "public interest" is considered a myth to force people to obey a higher power. So you would end up supporting privatisation, de-regulation, lower taxes and government spending, etc.

If the Oligarchy is a necessary and inescapable product of Capitalism, then Capitalism is part of the problem. The solutions you would end up choosing would reflect that by insisting that an economic system work for the public good rather than a private good, such as public ownership, regulation, economic planning towards common objectives, higher taxes and government spending.

How we think and frame the problem has direct effect on how we see the world, what we think is possible and what solutions we strive to achieve. Its common to say we live in a "post-ideological" time where ideology is irrelevant, but that is mainly because the ideology of the "oligarchy" has become effectively universal. we live in a market based system which is managed to get specific outcomes. just because we take it for granted and have known nothing else does not make it "normal", "natural" or "inevitable". History is full of surprises and time doesn't flatter people's egos or their illusions as they will come unstuck eventually. Ideologies are very powerful and its good to be aware of what the options are and to think around the political spectrum. If nothing else, it will make you think more clearly and challenge your own assumptions. you shouldn't be afraid to read points of view you consider taboo or controversial as it may still provide something useful. you can still work with people you disagree with and they can provide useful knowledge or perspectives to draw on (like being on RF for example).

3. As an individual, you have a very limited ability to effect change. Its still worth exploring them just to know what your options are like writing to local officials or your local paper to express an opinion, or going to town hall meetings or sitting in on decisions by the local council. Bigger social changes occur when large groups of people get together and decide "enough is enough". We may be in one of those times when the level of discontent is such that the system can no longer ignore it and will have to reform or give concessions. [Revolutions meanwhile take decades to build up as a combination of increasing social pressure and repression- like leaving the gas on a pan full of water and the lid tight on, the pan boils over.] Either way, the effectiveness of your actions is increased if you work with people who share similar ideas and goals. it doesn't have to be perfect, but just "enough" to be workable and sustainable over the long-term. Joining a political party (such as a third party) may be a good place to start as a way to explore alternatives to the Republican/Democratic Oligarchy. The point here is to commit yourself to change as a long term goal and to accept that much of what you will be doing is going to be pretty mundane, such as reading radical newspapers, attending party or group meetings, canvassing people's support or going on protests and getting media coverage to publicise a cause or event. sustaining this means having a deeper sense of your beliefs as part of a bigger picture in which you- along with thousands and millions of others- are actively working to improve the situation and exercise power from the bottom-up. rather than be something dull or a chore, "politics" has to become part of your everyday life as something you can sustain. ideally, find ways to enjoy it, or else make sure you take a break from it every once in a while so you can let off steam and don't burn out.

Regardless of what you decide, I'd recommend the book below as a resource and reference material. it may be what you are looking for. ;)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Activists-Handbook-step-step-participatory-x/dp/1848135920
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@Laika good post, I largely agree. I think we might be closer to revolution then many people think, and I'd prefer it to be a peaceful one rather than mad-max-ish :eek:
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Fight the oligarchy by voting for the candidates who best represent your views.
It's why I throw away my vote on Libertarians 90+% of the time.
Doesn't work though.

Note....
Looking over the OP, I think I'd have more of a fight with him than the oligarchy.
You sound like a real red blanket baby!
(It's an obscure term for a natural born commie.)

Not at all. I think the answer is capitalism with good checks and balances.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Context: IMO, most of what ails us can be traced back to capitalism run by Oligarchs. I don’t think I really have a beef with capitalism. But I do have a BIG beef with capitalism run by Oligarchs. All of the following problems are created or exacerbated by the Oligarchy:
Capitalism is an economic system that puts the control of production in the hands of the capital investors: i.e., the 'oligarchs'. Think of the game of monopoly, where the more wealth you acquire, the more you can use it to take wealth from the other players. It's about capital capturing more capital, capturing more capital. Because the single goal of every business enterprise in a capitalist economy is to maximize the profit returned on the capital invested. It is NOT to increase the economic well-being of anyone else involved in the enterprise. Not the worker, not the customer, and not the community. Which is why capitalism leads to economic collapse, and everything you listed along the way.
- fouling and pillaging of the environment
- massive income and wealth inequality
- a radically unfair taxation system
- a healthcare system ravaged by profiteering
- a poor education system
- a bloated and species threatening military complex
- an unhealthy food production and distribution system
- unsustainable farming, ranching, and fishing practices
- a largely corrupt media system
- a deliberately misinformed and credulous population

If you largely agree, how can we fight back against the Oligarchy?
Short of a bloody revolution, there may be no way of correcting the near total corruption of government in the U.S. at this point. Certainly the people would have to unite to effectively countermand it, and we appear to be nowhere near that happening. If it did, I would say that our most effective tactic would be to vote out of office EVERY INCUMBENT in EVERY ELECTION, of ANY PARTY affiliation, until they begin to ACT (not just talk) on eliminating the legalized bribery of our legislative body of government. Once we get the bribery stopped, we can then continue writing laws that would clean up the election process and hold politicians to the representational standards they were intended to embody.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I basically agree with the list but note that there are some who are rich and powerful enough to be one of the de-facto rulers but who choose not to be.

As to fighting back, violence never works. If it succeeds there is a new set of rulers more brutal than the old set which can also be followed by a counter-revolution with the first set back in power, uglier than ever.

I think first there needs to be a practical ideal. This is something much better than what we have now but which also understands human nature and does not let idealism override the practical.

Then I think people need to start talking about it and trying to live it so that others see it and agree it's possible. That's hard given the current structure but I think it's possible in some areas.

Taking the 'food distribution' part of your list, I volunteer at an organization that does two main kinds of action. The first is to gather high quality food from supermarkets that is close to the pull dates and would otherwise be thrown away. Then it gets distributed to organizations and individuals who need it but can't afford it. The second main arm does the same for clothing - allowing people on the bottom to have a normal shopping experience and being treated as valuable human beings no matter what their background happens to be. As long as we can avoid the "superior us helping poor you" mode instead living "we are all one and we automatically help those who need help" people respond.

This kind of action starts making visible that there is an alternative to today's dominant paradigm .

Great stuff!

I hold down a few different jobs ("author" amongst them), but they all relate to teaching or teaching teachers. The avenue that suits me best is through teaching, directly or indirectly. So my personal efforts are focused on making the population less credulous.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Capitalism is an economic system that puts the control of production in the hands of the capital investors: i.e., the 'oligarchs'. Think of the game of monopoly, where the more wealth you acquire, the more you can use it to take wealth from the other players. It's about capital capturing more capital, capturing more capital. Because the single goal of every business enterprise in a capitalist economy is to maximize the profit returned on the capital invested. It is NOT to increase the economic well-being of anyone else involved in the enterprise. Not the worker, not the customer, and not the community. Which is why capitalism leads to economic collapse, and everything you listed along the way.

I'd say that pure, unregulated capitalism is just as you suggest. I'm advocating for an impure, thoughtfully regulated and monitored system. If you don't think that's possible, what do you suggest?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I'd say that pure, unregulated capitalism is just as you suggest. I'm advocating for an impure, thoughtfully regulated and monitored system. If you don't think that's possible, what do you suggest?
No currency. The dollar is not legal tender. It's literally the definition of BS.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'd say that pure, unregulated capitalism is just as you suggest. I'm advocating for an impure, thoughtfully regulated and monitored system. If you don't think that's possible, what do you suggest?
The economic system of which you speak is called "socialism". Wherein the mechanisms of commercial production are controlled by the representatives of society as a whole rather than the capital investor: i.e., labor, investor, community (environment) and government.

But just saying that word out loud in the U.S. will bring on all manner of insane bile and loathing. The 'oligarchs' and their minions in politics and the media have brainwashed us very thoroughly, in the U.S.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Context: IMO, most of what ails us can be traced back to capitalism run by Oligarchs. I don’t think I really have a beef with capitalism. But I do have a BIG beef with capitalism run by Oligarchs. All of the following problems are created or exacerbated by the Oligarchy:

- fouling and pillaging of the environment
- massive income and wealth inequality
- a radically unfair taxation system
- a healthcare system ravaged by profiteering
- a poor education system
- a bloated and species threatening military complex
- an unhealthy food production and distribution system
- unsustainable farming, ranching, and fishing practices
- a largely corrupt media system
- a deliberately misinformed and credulous population

I might have missed some big ones, but this list seems sufficiently terrible.

So first, you might disagree with the premise?

If you largely agree, how can we fight back against the Oligarchy?
Sheeze, junior high school nonsense.

Can you name the persons who make up the capitalist oligarchy that rules the US government? Bill Gates, Mark Zukerberg, the Walton family, and all those other horrible people who have done so many horrible things. And who else?

And what measures do you advocate as the solution to this problem that you've imagined that has no connection to reality? I don't suppose you would be in favor of, like, instituting a democracy where individuals vote for their representatives.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
@Laika good post, I largely agree. I think we might be closer to revolution then many people think, and I'd prefer it to be a peaceful one rather than mad-max-ish :eek:
There's no such thing as a peaceful revolution. Why do you think the politicians are militarizing the police? The oligarchs know we're going to fight back, eventually, when we can no longer survive on the their crumbs. And they intend to be ready for it.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
If you largely agree, how can we fight back against the Oligarchy?
Its repetitious to bring this up again, but I was impressed with the argument of Dinesh D'Sousa mentioned in another thread, and I made time notes on his video presentation.
Video Discussion: Dinesh D'Souza Explains Anti- American Philosophy and Thought

He says that the current situation is brought about by the distortion of History for the purpose of undermining our meritocracy, and this is caused by people who have no use in our meritocracy and therefore despise it.

So here is a thought:

First, get rid of the Historical misinformation. America is not founded upon the murder and pillaging. Its got some problems but is actually a very interesting place with a great story to tell.

Second, treat the problem of jobs where people feel useless like they are cheating. Give them something to do or make, some career path for them that will give them some self respect. Encourage students and employers to avoid creating such 'Cushy' positions.

Get rid of superfluous management in our public schools. Fire, fire, fire.

Get rid of state university real estate programs and corporate connections. Get rid of the boards, the useless names at the top. Get rid of their 'Eternal growth' nonsense where they all hope to imitate Georgia Tech's fraudulent scheme. Get rid of the class distinctions created by allowing universities to contract out work. Students see this and its horrible. The people who work for the state universities are treated like 2nd class. Work is considered a disease in state universities, and if you have that disease then shame on you. No more university partnerships with banks, with retailers, with other for profit corporations. KISS. If universities can't pay the bills, let them fail. There are other accredited institutions. Its unfair to students to prop up these overweight institutions any longer.

Get rid of university sports teams, and imprison all of their Mascots. No mercy.

Let sports be sports and schools be schools with separate oversight. If sports are valuable (and they are), then let them not sponge off of schools and universities but be separate institutions where the people in them aren't stealing funds from students.

Anybody who gets state money should be working, end of story. They should at the end of the day remember that they did something of value.

The end goal is to undermine the oligarchy by removing its false basis and restore the meritocracy at a grass roots level.
 
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