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Fifty years of data -- no appreciable "Trickle Down"

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Tax cuts for rich people breed inequality without providing much of a boon to anyone else, according to a study of the advanced world that could add to the case for the wealthy to bear more of the cost of the coronavirus pandemic.

The paper, by David Hope of the London School of Economics and Julian Limberg of King’s College London, found that such measures over the last 50 years only really benefited the individuals who were directly affected, and did little to promote jobs or growth.

Here's the paper itself in PDF: http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/107919/1/Hope_economic_consequences_of_major_tax_cuts_published.pdf
 
Thanks, @Evangelicalhumanist. Very informative.

In addition, not only does trickle-down not work, but it also damages everyone. It leads to excessive inequality - beyond what is natural or healthy - that creates inefficiencies and hurts everyone, including, ultimately, the rich.

Joseph Steiglitz, the Nobel Prize winning economist, wrote a book called “The Price of Inequality” in which he documents the many ways such excessive inequality manifests itself - less opportunity, more poverty, more strain on our social safety nets, less healthy and productive workers and consumers to drive the economy, etc.

I highly recommend the book (just don’t expect it to be as gripping as a suspense-thriller).
 
What does work then?
I think just normal, progressive taxation. The less you make, the less tax you should pay.

Adam Smith proposed this in The Wealth of Nations. He said because the cost of basic necessities is the same for the poor and the rich, that the rich should pay “not only in proportion to their wealth, but somewhat more than that proportion”. He said this would be a more efficient way to fund social investments, like education. Adam Smith sensed, and modern-day economists have now accumulated the data, that excessive inequality is inefficient for productivity, growth and taxation.

The American revolutionary Thomas Paine also proposed a form of progressive taxation: namely, the estate tax. He proposed that because the amount of available land is finite, and because historically landowners formed an aristocracy that imposed monarchy and stifled democratic government, that anyone who owns property should owe some small amount back to the community. He also felt that inherited wealth, like the kind perpetuating dynasties in Europe, did not promote a meritocracy like the wealth one earns in one’s own lifetime.

Because of this, Paine proposed that all inheritances be taxed at a modest 10%. I.e., the estate tax, or what contemporary critics in America derisively call the “death tax”. Paine said that this could be used to fund a pension system for the elderly and the disabled. Also, he wanted it to fund a system where every man upon reaching the age of 21, would receive 15 British pounds (about half a year’s pay for the average working man). His theory was that this would give everyone a chance to create wealth for themselves: you could use that money to fund an education, or training, or travel to a place with more opportunities, or buy your own land. His essay was called “Agrarian Justice”.

Smart guy, huh? I wonder if this celebrated American revolutionary would be labeled a “socialist” and booed by MAGA country today.

The propaganda against the so-called “death tax” has been so successful, that the US estate tax has been repeatedly lowered. Today, 99.9% of people’s estates pay zero estate tax. Of the 0.1% which pay the tax, the average amount is 17%. The tax only applies to the amount of an inheritance received in excess of $5.3 million. So if you are prosperous enough that you plan to leave a lot more than $5.3 million to each of your beneficiaries, you might want to do some estate tax planning. (And, if that’s the case, let me say - congratulations! I admire wealth, I don’t envy it.)

In the US, back in the post WWII period - you know, when America was Great Again - the top marginal tax rate was 90%. Think about that! But that was only on income above $2.3 million, in today’s dollars.

Still, that marginal rate, to me, feels excessive, and it was lowered over the years ... first down to 77% in the 1960’s, and so on. Today, the top marginal income tax is 37% for individuals who earn more than about $500,000 per year. Keep in mind: you only pay 37% on every dollar above that $500k threshold. The dollars you earn below that threshold, get taxed less.

Think about that. There are plenty of people who earn $1 million, $2 million, $10 million a year, and more. Yet, they never pay more than the 37% rate. This stratosphere of people experiences a very nice flat tax regime, where no matter how much more they earn, they never encounter a higher tax bracket. Nice!

Meanwhile, there are people who earn $20k, $50k, $100k and $500k per year. For those people, the more they earn, the higher tax rate they pay. This group is burdened with progressive tax, starting at 10% and marching up to 37%. Ouch!

That is progressive tax on the poor and middle class, and a nifty flat tax on the rich. How is this efficient or sensible? It’s not, unless you believe in “trickle down”: i.e., the benefits to the rich will come back to the poor and middle class multiple times over. Because the beneficent rich will bestow their newfound riches on the poor (presumably by buying more yachts to stimulate the economy).

Sadly, referring back to the OP, the data has not borne out the trickle-down hypothesis. So the poor and middle class have just been getting hosed.

But wait, that’s not all! The capital gains tax rate is even lower, at 20%. Wealthy people are able to derive a substantial amount of their income from capital gains - i.e., the dividends and coupons from stocks and bonds, or the appreciation in value of their investments over time. Most wage-earners derive most of their wealth and income from their labor in the form of wages, not capital gains on investments. As a result, wealthy people benefit disproportionately from a lower capital gains tax.

So, in 2012, Republican candidate Mitt Romney earned about $14 million, most of it not from his labor, but from gains on his invested wealth - which is good work if you can get it!

That year, Mitt Romney, who is not a tax cheat - in fact, by all accounts he is an honest and generous man, and no one accuses him of any shenanigans whatsoever - paid an effective tax rate of 14.7%. That’s a lower effective tax rate than many bus drivers, engineers, teachers, nurses, etc.

I am not picking on Mitt Romney. It’s just a well-known example you can easily verify for yourself. The point is that this is how taxes work in America, now, after decades of flattening the once-progressive tax curve.

Guess what else? The poor and middle class have to pay sales taxes on their purchases. That’s another non-progressive tax, since the prince and the pauper pay the same price for a gallon of milk, and therefore the same tax.

Then we have a non-progressive system of property taxes, typically 0.5 - 1.5% on the assessed value of a person’s home. Where I live, it doesn’t matter if you live in a shack or a mansion, the rate is the same. Also, the poor and middle class tend to have the bulk of their wealth in the houses they live in ... But the very rich? A lot more of their wealth will be in other forms, like stocks and bonds. There is no property tax on that whatsoever, so that wealth gets special treatment; it is protected.

So ... to answer your question ... if “trickle down” doesn’t work, what would work? What would work is if we reversed decades of intentionally flattening our once sort-of progressive tax system, which has resulted in the unnatural and inefficient tax outcomes I just described. We should have:

(1) a meaningful estate tax, perhaps exempting all inheritances below [$500,000?],

(2) progressive taxation, such that as your income gets to $1 million, $10 million and higher, your tax rate increases,

(3) progressive taxation should be in effect whether income is through labor or capital gains, i.e., if you earn $10 million off your investments you should pay a higher tax rate than someone who earned $100k in wages.

(4) the amount of additional tax revenue from implementing this progressive taxation on the wealthy, could be used, in part, to reduce the tax burden on the poor and middle class. I.e., we could lower the tax rate for people earning $20k - $500k, lower property taxes, lower sales taxes, etc. In a progressive way, so the less you earn / the less wealth you have, the lower rate you pay.

(5) conservatives have in the past complained that a large number of people pay “no tax”. They think everyone should have “skin in the game”. I don’t disagree with this. I would be happy to charge some small tax on low wage earners. But it should be progressive, i.e., they should not end up paying a higher effective tax rate than people earning $15 million a year, like Mitt Romney.

If you made it this far ... sorry for the long post!
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What does work then?
The same things that worked during the New Deal, before the Reagonomic revolution.
It's counter-intuitive, but high corporate taxes and strict corporate and banking regulation yields economic growth and stability (there were no economic crashes during the '50s and '6os), as well as a strong middle class, a strong social safety net and a general prosperity.

Remember, it was almost exactly 50 years ago when the Powell Memo came out -- or, rather, was secretly circulated. That was the call to arms.
45 Years and Counting: Sustaining Power of “The Powell Memo”
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
@Mr Spinkles, thanks for covering the bases on that. Yeah, I know. We live in an age when we pay lip service to being informed but instead prefer bumper-stickers to books, but thank you for ignoring that and laying out the facts. At least you did your part.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
One likely benefit of higher taxes on the rich --- might reduce the building resentment against them, and the increasing radicalization of the lower classes.

Quiz Time: Who knows when Trump's popularity in the polls sunk to its all time low?

Within the weeks following the passage of his tax cuts. Yeah, he was even less popular then than he's been at anytime during his mismanagement of the pandemic.

Not all -- but most Americans are catching on to 'trickle down' shenanigans.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I look at it as a firm reality that no political party ever wants to change.

The wealthy will never hurt their cash cow.

Ever.
They will -- and have -- when they're forced to.

The rich and powerful -- the Owners -- want to protect their wealth and power. The people want a piece of the pie. It's Capitalism vs Democracy.

The banks and corporations legislate themselves into dominance. The top heavy edifice eventually crashes, and the exploited masses revolt, legislate checks and balances, and take back their power.
Unfortunately, history is forgotten, and the capitalists begin quietly deregulating; clawing their way back to dominance, and the cycle repeats.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One likely benefit of higher taxes on the rich --- might reduce the building resentment against them, and the increasing radicalization of the lower classes.

Quiz Time: Who knows when Trump's popularity in the polls sunk to its all time low?

Within the weeks following the passage of his tax cuts. Yeah, he was even less popular then than he's been at anytime during his mismanagement of the pandemic.

Not all -- but most Americans are catching on to 'trickle down' shenanigans.
The middle and working classes have legitimate grievances. Government is not working for them. Citizens have been tricked into thinking government is "The Problem," and defunding it, leaving private, for-profit corporations to pick up the slack. Of course, their primary interest is profit, not public service, plus they're anything but transparent. Services like education and healthcare, which used to be affordable, become corporate cash cows. Services like infrastructure -- which doesn't return an immediate profit -- are neglected.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I think just normal, progressive taxation. The less you make, the less tax you should pay.

Adam Smith proposed this in The Wealth of Nations. He said because the cost of basic necessities is the same for the poor and the rich, that the rich should pay “not only in proportion to their wealth, but somewhat more than that proportion”. He said this would be a more efficient way to fund social investments, like education. Adam Smith sensed, and modern-day economists have now accumulated the data, that excessive inequality is inefficient for productivity, growth and taxation.

The American revolutionary Thomas Paine also proposed a form of progressive taxation: namely, the estate tax. He proposed that because the amount of available land is finite, and because historically landowners formed an aristocracy that imposed monarchy and stifled democratic government, that anyone who owns property should owe some small amount back to the community. He also felt that inherited wealth, like the kind perpetuating dynasties in Europe, did not promote a meritocracy like the wealth one earns in one’s own lifetime.

Because of this, Paine proposed that all inheritances be taxed at a modest 10%. I.e., the estate tax, or what contemporary critics in America derisively call the “death tax”. Paine said that this could be used to fund a pension system for the elderly and the disabled. Also, he wanted it to fund a system where every man upon reaching the age of 21, would receive 15 British pounds (about half a year’s pay for the average working man). His theory was that this would give everyone a chance to create wealth for themselves: you could use that money to fund an education, or training, or travel to a place with more opportunities, or buy your own land. His essay was called “Agrarian Justice”.

Smart guy, huh? I wonder if this celebrated American revolutionary would be labeled a “socialist” and booed by MAGA country today.

The propaganda against the so-called “death tax” has been so successful, that the US estate tax has been repeatedly lowered. Today, 99.9% of people’s estates pay zero estate tax. Of the 0.1% which pay the tax, the average amount is 17%. The tax only applies to the amount of an inheritance received in excess of $5.3 million. So if you are prosperous enough that you plan to leave a lot more than $5.3 million to each of your beneficiaries, you might want to do some estate tax planning. (And, if that’s the case, let me say - congratulations! I admire wealth, I don’t envy it.)

In the US, back in the post WWII period - you know, when America was Great Again - the top marginal tax rate was 90%. Think about that! But that was only on income above $2.3 million, in today’s dollars.

Still, that marginal rate, to me, feels excessive, and it was lowered over the years ... first down to 77% in the 1960’s, and so on. Today, the top marginal income tax is 37% for individuals who earn more than about $500,000 per year. Keep in mind: you only pay 37% on every dollar above that $500k threshold. The dollars you earn below that threshold, get taxed less.

Think about that. There are plenty of people who earn $1 million, $2 million, $10 million a year, and more. Yet, they never pay more than the 37% rate. This stratosphere of people experiences a very nice flat tax regime, where no matter how much more they earn, they never encounter a higher tax bracket. Nice!

Meanwhile, there are people who earn $20k, $50k, $100k and $500k per year. For those people, the more they earn, the higher tax rate they pay. This group is burdened with progressive tax, starting at 10% and marching up to 37%. Ouch!

That is progressive tax on the poor and middle class, and a nifty flat tax on the rich. How is this efficient or sensible? It’s not, unless you believe in “trickle down”: i.e., the benefits to the rich will come back to the poor and middle class multiple times over. Because the beneficent rich will bestow their newfound riches on the poor (presumably by buying more yachts to stimulate the economy).

Sadly, referring back to the OP, the data has not borne out the trickle-down hypothesis. So the poor and middle class have just been getting hosed.

But wait, that’s not all! The capital gains tax rate is even lower, at 20%. Wealthy people are able to derive a substantial amount of their income from capital gains - i.e., the dividends and coupons from stocks and bonds, or the appreciation in value of their investments over time. Most wage-earners derive most of their wealth and income from their labor in the form of wages, not capital gains on investments. As a result, wealthy people benefit disproportionately from a lower capital gains tax.

So, in 2012, Republican candidate Mitt Romney earned about $14 million, most of it not from his labor, but from gains on his invested wealth - which is good work if you can get it!

That year, Mitt Romney, who is not a tax cheat - in fact, by all accounts he is an honest and generous man, and no one accuses him of any shenanigans whatsoever - paid an effective tax rate of 14.7%. That’s a lower effective tax rate than many bus drivers, engineers, teachers, nurses, etc.

I am not picking on Mitt Romney. It’s just a well-known example you can easily verify for yourself. The point is that this is how taxes work in America, now, after decades of flattening the once-progressive tax curve.

Guess what else? The poor and middle class have to pay sales taxes on their purchases. That’s another non-progressive tax, since the prince and the pauper pay the same price for a gallon of milk, and therefore the same tax.

Then we have a non-progressive system of property taxes, typically 0.5 - 1.5% on the assessed value of a person’s home. Where I live, it doesn’t matter if you live in a shack or a mansion, the rate is the same. Also, the poor and middle class tend to have the bulk of their wealth in the houses they live in ... But the very rich? A lot more of their wealth will be in other forms, like stocks and bonds. There is no property tax on that whatsoever, so that wealth gets special treatment; it is protected.

So ... to answer your question ... if “trickle down” doesn’t work, what would work? What would work is if we reversed decades of intentionally flattening our once sort-of progressive tax system, which has resulted in the unnatural and inefficient tax outcomes I just described. We should have:

(1) a meaningful estate tax, perhaps exempting all inheritances below [$500,000?],

(2) progressive taxation, such that as your income gets to $1 million, $10 million and higher, your tax rate increases,

(3) progressive taxation should be in effect whether income is through labor or capital gains, i.e., if you earn $10 million off your investments you should pay a higher tax rate than someone who earned $100k in wages.

(4) the amount of additional tax revenue from implementing this progressive taxation on the wealthy, could be used, in part, to reduce the tax burden on the poor and middle class. I.e., we could lower the tax rate for people earning $20k - $500k, lower property taxes, lower sales taxes, etc. In a progressive way, so the less you earn / the less wealth you have, the lower rate you pay.

(5) conservatives have in the past complained that a large number of people pay “no tax”. They think everyone should have “skin in the game”. I don’t disagree with this. I would be happy to charge some small tax on low wage earners. But it should be progressive, i.e., they should not end up paying a higher effective tax rate than people earning $15 million a year, like Mitt Romney.

If you made it this far ... sorry for the long post!
A thorough summary of the most important facts about taxation.

Just a few things to add, not to contradict:
Tax brackets are sooo 19th century. Even the IRS now owns computers which can calculate a tax formula. One progressive formula for all taxes (and the upper limit should be 100%).
The formula could be negative for low or no income, thus creating a UBI through one tax formula.
Inheritance should be taxed 100% (while lowering other taxes). There is no merit in inheriting a fortune. (Just my personal view. I dislike those welfare queens who get plenty of money for nothing.)
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Direct donations have the best effect. For example, direct donations to me give me more money.
Which you probably spent on necessities, thus stimulating the economy.

See, it's like this: the rich got that way either by inheriting it, or by hoarding and saving. Nothing necessarily wrong with either of those, but here's the deal: if you give money to a saver, one that already has the money he needs to live comfortably on, he's most likely to save that new money, too. Effect on the economy? Nada.

Give money to someone struggling, however, and instead of trying to make do with poor quality nutrition for the kids, she'll buy fresh fruit and vegetables; instead of sewing on more knee and elbow patches, she'll buy shirts and pants for hubby and the kids. The money gets spent, and the economy improves.
 
See, it's like this: the rich got that way either by inheriting it, or by hoarding and saving.
To be fair: the third option is they got that way by investing their time and effort into a business venture, or their money into investments that generate a return. I.e., they created jobs.

The catch is that this is not the only way to create jobs. And special tax breaks for the rich don’t come back and benefit the rest of the economy multiple times over in the form of more/better jobs, as the data in the OP has shown. Nuts!

I don’t harbor feelings of animosity or envy towards people who are wealthy. There are some wonderful hard working, and generous wealthy people out there and I congratulate them. I just think they should be taxed progressively, like everyone else, which is not the way it works today because of the myth of “trickle down”.
 
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