Federal Appeals Court Upholds Blocking Vaccine and Testing Mandate

[Kooky]

Yes, because every time I made comments I was badgered to provide sources when all of it was readily searchable and accessible. But that aside I want to know exactly how contact tracing is going to work. How will someone tag me with having passed on covid to anyone else? So you see, the comment was stupid and grasping at straws.

Contact tracing has been in place since the early months of the pandemic in my neck of the woods.
Do you literally not know how it works? I don't want to condescend to you, but I honestly can't tell.

 

[Jainarayan]

Contact tracing has been in place since the early months of the pandemic in my neck of the woods.
Do you literally not know how it works? I don't want to condescend to you, but I honestly can't tell.

Tell me how it works (I do know, I just want to hear from someone who approves of it… I don’t). How are you going to know if and to whom I have passed the virus because I certainly won’t cooperate. How do you even know I have it, because I certainly won’t cooperate. How do you know to find me, because I certainly won’t cooperate.

 

[Kooky]

Tell me how it works. How are you going to know if and to whom I have passed the virus? How do you even know I have it? How do you know to find me?

Here's how it worked when I was tested positively for COVID:

• Following recommendations from my doctor after calling in sick to work, I called emergency testing services to test me for COVID-19. I was told to isolate at home until I got a test result.
• When I got my positive test result, I received an email from my local government telling me to stay at home.
  
• In that email, I was instructed to provide a list of people I had contact with in the last 48 hours, and to provide contact data (phone number and address) if at all possible.
  
• I further contacted both my doctor and my place of work, who kindly provided me the information necessary to complete that list (I'd been holding two classes at 10 people each the previous days, so gathering their info was comparatively simple).
• If I had been living with other people, I would also have been required to provide their data as well.
• These people were then contacted by my government and informed that they were direct contacts and required to isolate for 14 days as well.

In my humble opinion, this worked as it did, because

1. I chose to use a public service to test for COVID, so any information I would have otherwise required to provide to the government was transferred automatically without me needing to do anything.
2. I had no neferious intent and actually wanted this to work as intended.
3. I wasn't an ***.

Evidently, in a country where there is no functioning public healthcare and emergency system, or where the government flat out doesn't care about testing people, this would have been far less effective.

Based on what I read, another factor is that once a large proportion of people start contracting the disease, contact tracing breaks down because there is just too much data involved for the people working on it to deal with, which is how a runway pandemic can quickly overwhelm the system.

 

[Jainarayan]

Here's how it worked when I was tested positively for COVID:

• Following recommendations from my doctor after calling in sick to work, I called emergency testing services to test me for COVID-19. I was told to isolate at home until I got a test result.
• When I got my positive test result, I received an email from my local government telling me to stay at home.
  
• In that email, I was instructed to provide a list of people I had contact with in the last 48 hours, and to provide contact data (phone number and address) if at all possible.
  
• I further contacted both my doctor and my place of work, who kindly provided me the information necessary to complete that list (I'd been holding two classes at 10 people each the previous days, so gathering their info was comparatively simple).
• If I had been living with other people, I would also have been required to provide their data as well.
• These people were then contacted by my government and informed that they were direct contacts and required to isolate for 14 days as well.

In my humble opinion, this worked as it did, because

1. I chose to use a public service to test for COVID, so any information I would have otherwise required to provide to the government was transferred automatically without me needing to do anything.
2. I had no neferious intent and actually wanted this to work as intended.
3. I wasn't an ***.

Evidently, in a country where there is no functioning public healthcare and emergency system, or where the government flat out doesn't care about testing people, this would have been far less effective.

Based on what I read, another factor is that once a large proportion of people start contracting the disease, contact tracing breaks down because there is just too much data involved for the people working on it to deal with, which is how a runway pandemic can quickly overwhelm the system.

And so it begins. Don’t think it can’t, because as so many people claim, there are no Constitutional rights or protections against this. I disagree but hear “prove it!”

 

[Kooky]

And so it begins. Don’t think it can’t, because as so many people claim, there are no Constitutional rights or protections against this. I disagree but hear “prove it!”

Would you mind explaining what exactly this has to do with what I wrote?

 

[Jainarayan]

Would you mind explaining what exactly this has to do with what I wrote?

Tracking, information to authorities. Setting a precedent. If you can’t see the potential for abuse I just don’t know what.

 

[Kooky]

Tracking, information to authorities. Setting a precedent. If you can’t see the potential for abuse I just don’t know what.

What potential for abuse do you see in letting people know that they've had contact with a COVID case?

 

[Jainarayan]

What potential for abuse do you see in letting people know that they've had contact with a COVID case?

Do you really not understand? Where will tracking end? Do you really not see the potential for building databases to track? Or are you yanking my chain?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Substitute any of those groups for a new undesirable group.

 

[Kooky]

Do you really not understand? Where will tracking end?

Usually it ends with K-1, i.e. direct contacts.

Do you really not see the potential for building databases to track? Or are you yanking my chain?

You are right, databases are inherently evil. We should destroy all records, starting with our financial records, wiping out all debt. Then we destroy all government records, rendering the distinction between foreigners and citizens meaningless. Then we destroy all tax records, to render government unable to pay its bills. And finally we destroy all purchase and sales records and obliberate capitalism.

Sounds pretty neat now that I think about it, don't you think so too?

 

[Jainarayan]

Usually it ends with K-1, i.e. direct contacts.

You are right, databases are inherently evil. We should destroy all records, starting with our financial records, wiping out all debt. Then we destroy all government records, rendering the distinction between foreigners and citizens meaningless. Then we destroy all tax records, to render government unable to pay its bills. And finally we destroy all purchase and sales records and obliberate capitalism.

Sounds pretty neat now that I think about it, don't you think so too?

Inherently evil, no. Potential for abuse, absolutely. I don’t know how old you are but look into the files Sen. McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover compiled on individuals. And that was before the digital age.

The creepy and scary side of big data abuse
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/frompost/march98/privacy8.htm
https://www.google.com/search?q=abu...OYAQCgAQGwAQ_AAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp

Let’s add health information. Oh wait! I forgot it’s already there.

Wake up.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's not, and I'm not going to watch a video sight unseen without at least some idea what it's about. and whether it is relevant at all to our conversation to begin with.


Yes, for example, border security has long since crossed into "eggregious violations of human rights and personal freedoms" and you've applauded that. People being brutalized by border patrols, immigration services and "homeland security" is enjoyable security theatre, yet a government policy to vaccinate as many people as possible is the rhetorically made equivalent to the Holocaust because it may result in some mild inconvenience in the face of an ongoing global pandemic.

Well if people with unknown diseases or intentions forcefully cross the border I would think such responses are necessary to protect the people within said border.

I think its in the best interest for people to go through proper channels rather than illegal means.

But that's for another thread. Another regurgitation session.

 

[Kooky]

Inherently evil, no. Potential for abuse, absolutely. I don’t know how old you are but look into the files Sen. McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover compiled on individuals. And that was before the digital age.

So should we destroy all records or not? If databases present a clear danger to all of us, then we should get rid of them, no?

Or are only new databases bad, and old databases that already exist are fine and should be kept?

 

[Jainarayan]

So should we destroy all records or not? If databases present a clear danger to all of us, then we should get rid of them, no?

Or are only new databases bad, and old databases that already exist are fine and should be kept?

It depends on what they contain, how they’re maintained and controlled, and the security on them. Maybe you think HIPAA is unnecessary? Maybe we should do away with all security and encryption protocols. Why do we need them? What could anyone do with that protected information?

False Panacea: Abusive Surveillance in the Name of Public Health
Covid tracing fans public health vs privacy debate

 

[Kooky]

It depends on what they contain, how they’re maintained and controlled, and the security on them. Maybe you think HIPAA is unnecessary?

False Panacea: Abusive Surveillance in the Name of Public Health
Covid tracing fans public health vs privacy debate

You seemed pretty adamant earlier that the very concept of a database that contains personal data is intrinsically suspect and potentially dangerous. Why should existing records be exempt from suspicion?

Maybe we should do away with all security and encryption protocols. Why do we need them? What could anyone do with that protected information?

Would you want your personal data to be accessible by everyone?
Would you want your boss or random coworkers to know about your medical history or your tax record?

Data is kept secure in order to keep people peeking who shouldn't be allowed to peak. This is also why both public and private databases should (and theoretically are) only allowed to work with data that is necessary for them to do their job, and only for so long as they need to do their job. That's what the EU's data protection guidelines are all about, and what most European public institutions (including healthcare institutions) are following in their usage of private data.

These issues are not taken lightly. I do agree that we need to be prudent in what personalized information we share and who gets to work with that information; that is why strict guidelines (frequently decried by people who dislike the very concept of being bound by law and regulations) are necessary, and why public institutions should (and frequently do) take data protection very seriously. For this reason, however, our data also needs to be as secure as possible, so that only the people who are supposed to look at it are actually able to do so.

 

[Jainarayan]

You seemed pretty adamant earlier that the very concept of a database that contains personal data is intrinsically suspect and potentially dangerous. Why should existing records be exempt from suspicion?


Would you want your personal data to be accessible by everyone?
Would you want your boss or random coworkers to know about your medical history or your tax record?

Data is kept secure in order to keep people peeking who shouldn't be allowed to peak. This is also why both public and private databases should (and theoretically are) only allowed to work with data that is necessary for them to do their job, and only for so long as they need to do their job. That's what the EU's data protection guidelines are all about, and what most European public institutions (including healthcare institutions) are following in their usage of private data.

These issues are not taken lightly. I do agree that we need to be prudent in what personalized information we share and who gets to work with that information; that is why strict guidelines (frequently decried by people who dislike the very concept of being bound by law and regulations) are necessary, and why public institutions should (and frequently do) take data protection very seriously. For this reason, however, our data also needs to be as secure as possible, so that only the people who are supposed to look at it are actually able to do so.

You didn’t read or absorb a thing I said.

 

[Kooky]

You didn’t read or absorb a thing I said.

I strongly doubt that, but let's just agree to disagree.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Tell me how it works (I do know, I just want to hear from someone who approves of it… I don’t). How are you going to know if and to whom I have passed the virus because I certainly won’t cooperate. How do you even know I have it, because I certainly won’t cooperate. How do you know to find me, because I certainly won’t cooperate.

Why wouldn't you co-operate?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Do you really not understand? Where will tracking end? Do you really not see the potential for building databases to track? Or are you yanking my chain?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Substitute any of those groups for a new undesirable group.

You must be yanking our chains with this. Face palm indeed.

 

[Jainarayan]

Why wouldn't you co-operate?

Because it’s my right not to.

 

[Jainarayan]

You must be yanking our chains with this. Face palm indeed.

Because it’s true? And because I don’t hold with your beliefs as you think I should?

“Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” - George Santayana.