I think what they are challenging is why do they have faith in the specific things they have faith in. A valid challenge.
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Faith is being sure...
- Thread starter jimb
- Start date
So clearly you don't understand what faith really is. Faith is being sure of what you hope for...
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Then you don't believe in "God’s will be done" for no man can know, without question, what His plan is. Or even what He is! And if you are being certain of what YOU hope for, and certain of what YOU do not see, you have not relinquished the physical world.
Faith is living with the humility that we know nothing, but it will still be alright, for HE knows all and will provide.
I agree, but not in a material sense.
The key thought for me is, that evidence for the Spirit is based upon justice, logic and reason.
Regards Tony
If you're at all familiar with the New Testament, you've undoubtedly read how the Pharisees tried often to trap Jesus about things that He said.
For example, Matthew 15:1-3...
"Then Pharisees and experts in the law came from Jerusalem to Jesus and said, “Why do your disciples disobey the tradition of the elders? For they don’t wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition?"
and Matthew 16:1-3...
"Now when the Pharisees and Sadducees came to test Jesus, they asked him to show them a sign from heaven. He said, “When evening comes you say, ‘It will be fair weather, because the sky is red,’ and in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, because the sky is red and darkening.’ You know how to judge correctly the appearance of the sky, but you cannot evaluate the signs of the times."
Followed shortly thereafter (Matthew 16:11-2) by...
"How could you not understand that I was not speaking to you about bread? But beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees!” Then they understood that he had not told them to be on guard against the yeast in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
And Matthew 19:3, "Then some Pharisees came to him in order to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful to divorce a wife for any cause?” "
And Matthew 22:15, "Then the Pharisees went out and planned together to entrap him with his own words."
And Matthew 23:13-36... (with my emphases)
“But woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You keep locking people out of the kingdom of heaven! For you neither enter nor permit those trying to enter to go in.
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You cross land and sea to make one convert, and when you get one, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves!
“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple is bound by nothing. But whoever swears by the gold of the temple is bound by the oath.’ Blind fools! Which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar is bound by nothing. But if anyone swears by the gift on it he is bound by the oath.’ You are blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and the one who dwells in it. And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and the one who sits on it.
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You give a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you neglect what is more important in the law—justice, mercy, and faithfulness! You should have done these things without neglecting the others. Blind guides!
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside may become clean too!
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs[ag] that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of the bones of the dead and of everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you look righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have participated with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your ancestors! You snakes, you offspring of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
“For this reason I am sending you prophets and wise men and experts in the law,[an] some of whom you will kill and crucify,[ao] and some you will flog[ap] in your synagogues[aq] and pursue from town to town, so that on you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, this generation will be held responsible for all these things!"
These comments could just as easily been directed at some of the "experts" on this forum who denigrate Christians and our faith!
For example, Matthew 15:1-3...
"Then Pharisees and experts in the law came from Jerusalem to Jesus and said, “Why do your disciples disobey the tradition of the elders? For they don’t wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition?"
and Matthew 16:1-3...
"Now when the Pharisees and Sadducees came to test Jesus, they asked him to show them a sign from heaven. He said, “When evening comes you say, ‘It will be fair weather, because the sky is red,’ and in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, because the sky is red and darkening.’ You know how to judge correctly the appearance of the sky, but you cannot evaluate the signs of the times."
Followed shortly thereafter (Matthew 16:11-2) by...
"How could you not understand that I was not speaking to you about bread? But beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees!” Then they understood that he had not told them to be on guard against the yeast in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
And Matthew 19:3, "Then some Pharisees came to him in order to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful to divorce a wife for any cause?” "
And Matthew 22:15, "Then the Pharisees went out and planned together to entrap him with his own words."
And Matthew 23:13-36... (with my emphases)
“But woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You keep locking people out of the kingdom of heaven! For you neither enter nor permit those trying to enter to go in.
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You cross land and sea to make one convert, and when you get one, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves!
“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple is bound by nothing. But whoever swears by the gold of the temple is bound by the oath.’ Blind fools! Which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar is bound by nothing. But if anyone swears by the gift on it he is bound by the oath.’ You are blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and the one who dwells in it. And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and the one who sits on it.
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You give a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you neglect what is more important in the law—justice, mercy, and faithfulness! You should have done these things without neglecting the others. Blind guides!
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside may become clean too!
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs[ag] that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of the bones of the dead and of everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you look righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have participated with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your ancestors! You snakes, you offspring of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
“For this reason I am sending you prophets and wise men and experts in the law,[an] some of whom you will kill and crucify,[ao] and some you will flog[ap] in your synagogues[aq] and pursue from town to town, so that on you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, this generation will be held responsible for all these things!"
These comments could just as easily been directed at some of the "experts" on this forum who denigrate Christians and our faith!
Ajax
Active Member
If you have faith that the opposite direction coming driver will follow the same rules, you would have been long time dead by now.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I KNOW that most of what Christians believe is not the truth, and I don't need faith to know that, all I need is a Bible.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Even if you have faith in yourself , it is not enough.
My cousin died the day after his wedding because someone was not carefull enough.
The result after that is wife without husband , child without father.
I have witnessed myself that if you watch when you drive , someome else might not.
You drive and you pass on green , and someone else drives and he passes on red.
And boom...
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I do not denigrate any Christians because they have faith.
However, I detest the false doctrines of Christianity with every bone in my body because they have led to the ruination of society..
Some of these false Christian doctrines are as follows, but this list is by no means comprehensive.
1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus is the Only Way to God
3. Christianity is the only true religion
4. Jesus rules for all time so there can never be any more Prophets or Messengers
5. Jesus rose from the dead in a physical body
6. Jesus is coming back to earth to build a kingdom
Christians say that any Prophet the comes after Jesus must necessarily be false, but Jesus never said that. Jesus said we would know a Prophet by his fruits (Matthew 7:16-20) which means that Jesus knew there would be more Prophets to come after Him.
Ironically, the false prophets are the false prophets of the Christian church.
The False Prophets, pp. 25-30
Christians just cannot face the reality that Jesus is never coming back to earth, and their continuing to wait for Jesus to return and FIX everything that is wrong in this world so they won't have to do anything is reprehensible, especially since Jesus said that He was no more in the world and His work was finished here (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11).
Jesus’ work was finished when He died on the cross, John 19:30 but Christians could not face that so they tried to bring Jesus back to life by writing stories saying that Jesus rose from the dead.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
but most Christian beliefs are based on hope, especially the belief that Jesus is "coming back."
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
The truth is that Christianity has many conflicting beliefs that contradict one another, such as conditional salvation vs. unconditional salvation, the proper baptism (sprinkled with water vs. fully immersed), female pastors, and the "end-times" (the rapture, pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation).
Many Christians have the perpetual habit of accusing other Christians of not being "true Christians," and this accusation is as old as Christianity itself (read 1 Corinthians 1:10–17). The problem I have with Christians accusing other Christians of not being true followers of Jesus is that they can never agree on what the Bible truly says, and they constantly argue, insult, and fight one another about what they believe the Bible teaches. The truth is that if you ask the same theological question to a broad group of Christians, you will receive very different answers. All of these Christians will cite the Bible in an attempt to defend their answers, even though their answers are very different and contradictory. I think that it is also worth noting that they don't agree on whether salvation in Jesus Christ is unconditional or not, although they all read the Bible. They have diverse biblical interpretations and church doctrines about salvation, which is defined as Calvinism vs. Arminianism (unconditional salvation vs. conditional salvation). Some Christians claim that a person's salvation is conditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Some Christians claim that a person's salvation is unconditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Other Christians claim that baptism or speaking in tongues is essential for salvation, and they will provide a few scriptures that they believe support their position. They contradict each other, but they all believe they are right.
Questions about how to properly baptize believers (fully immersed in water or sprinkled with water), whether it is biblical for women to be pastors, and about the alleged end times (pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation, and the rapture of Christians) would elicit the same kind of derision among Christians. There are also churches claiming to be the "true church, which implies that Christians in other churches are wrong in their theology and biblical interpretation. They even argue and debate about whether Jesus' mother remained a virgin after giving birth to him or if she had other children after him.
The truth is that Christians are deeply divided, with different churches subscribing to diverse beliefs and readings of the Bible that have emerged in both historical and modern Christianity. Catholics and Protestants have different doctrines, dogmas, and interpretations of the Bible. So do Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Messianic Jews, and Orthodox Christians, which include Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and Greek Orthodox. There are also Baptists (First Baptist, Second Baptist, Southern Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Anabaptist, Freewill Baptist, and others), Methodists, Mennonites, Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God, Quakers, Anglicans, Nazarenes, and a plethora of other Christian churches that aren't listed here.
Ironically, Christians all believe that they are correct about their beliefs and everyone else (including other Christians) is wrong about theirs, but then they have the audacity to claim that the Bible is the word of God and Christianity is the only true religion in the world. In my opinion, there's no reason to believe any of them. I think it's unreasonable for any Christian to claim that their biblical interpretation and theology are correct while insisting that other Christians are wrong, that the Bible is divinely inspired, and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world. It is also irrational, in my opinion, that Christians expect non-Christians to accept the Bible as divinely inspired and the final authority on moral issues, yet they can't agree on what the Bible says.
Read Hebrews 11!
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I will - but give me something from Jesus rather than Paul, please.
a) There is no evidence of who wrote the letter to the Hebrews. Some people think Paul wrote it, but many people disagree.
b) The entire Bible is the Word of God. Jesus spoke almost exclusively to the Jews (before His resurrection), so in many cases His words are not applicable to Christians.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
True, but it is also believed the writer used the accumulated letters of Paul to base his "message and style."
The writer of Hebrews had for his model the Pauline letter-type, which had just clearly emerged before the churches in the published collection of Paul's letters. His letter is about two-thirds the length of Paul's letter to Rome, written almost forty years before. Like Paul, the new writer varies instruction with entreaty, only much more frequently than Paul had done. Barnett finds it reasonably likely that Hebrews used eight of the ten letters of the primary Pauline canon—all except II Thessalonians and Philemon. [1] Its clearest use of them is in the great catalogue of the heroes of faith, where Paul's characteristic doctrine of faith is glorified somewhat in the manner Paul himself used in dealing with love in I Corinthians, chapter 13, only much more elaborately and rhetorically. Hebrews is, in fact, the most elegant rhetoric in the New Testament. Indeed, its atmosphere is for the most part really that of a sermon: "My time would fail me if I told of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets,"
You make the assumption I'm Christian.
I am Omnist with Christian background but stronger leanings towards Judaism than Christianity. IOW, I find what Jesus wanted to express to the Jews more relevant to my beliefs than Paul and his followers messages to Gentiles.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Good luck with that. Nothing in the Bible is "from Jesus" since Jesus did not write anything.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
True, but his teachings, his life, and his death are what the Christian faith is supposedly based on, so what is credited to him as his teaching should overrule the tenets of a later Apostle fosterling. As the author of 2 Peter stated: "...brother Paul wrote to you...There are some things in them hard to understand...", Paul and his follower's tenets always should be weighed against those of Christ, or one is actually following Paulinity rather than Christianity.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree, but I do not necessarily believe that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are an accurate depiction of his teachings, life and death.
I'd like to believe that but it is too much of a stretch, especially to believe the words in those gospels are the exact words Jesus spoke. Even if the authors had known Jesus in person they were written decades after Jesus lived and died and nobody has that good of a memory.
Unfortunately, Paulinity is Christianity, for all intents and purposes.
How Paul changed the course of Christianity
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YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's not the same thing.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not sure what you mean by that when you said you find what Jesus wanted to express to the Jews moire relevant to you r beliefs than Paul and his followers.