PureX
Veteran Member
That looks a lot like dishonesty, to me.
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Faith is being sure...
- Thread starter jimb
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Most certainly, in reference to the afterlife we have to have faith, since nobody really knows what will happen after they die.
We also have to have faith in things in our life that we cannot know the outcome of, which is just about everything. For example, I have to have faith that I will somehow be able to navigate through all the changes that have come my way and continue to come my way, and still come out in one piece.
I am convinced of my belief, not only as a possibility, but as reality. That helps me some, but it is not a panacea as some members of my religion believe it is. I can't deal with people who are like that as I consider it fanaticism.
Whether or not we believe in God or have a religious belief we have to put our trust in something or someone in order to move forward through a world that we do not fully understand or control.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How do you know what other people are sure of?
PureX
Veteran Member
I was once convinced of my beliefs, too. Until it became evident to me that it was all self-delusional BS. And all self-inflicted and self-reinforced. And of course I had no idea at the time, nor could I ever have been convinced that what I believed to be true was not true at all.
So I don't believe my own BS anymore. Nor do I believe anyone else's. And I have found that life works out pretty much as it wants to whether I have fallen for some belief, or not. But I'm a lot better at responding to it when I am not trying to defend any beliefs. I believe "it is what it is", now. And that I have no idea, really, what "it" is.
I agree. But what I have found that it's all a lot easier to do when I am not pretending I know anything. When I am not a "believer". But rather just an observer.
Why is that? Faith isn't hope. It is knowing for certain.
For example... James 1:5-7, "But if anyone is deficient in wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without reprimand, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed around by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord,"
I see it is useless quoting the dictionary. There are material proofs and there are spiritual proofs and they, one and all come from the same source.
Thus all we know is subjective, limited to our capacity to understand creation The proofs for God are as numerous as material proofs. The material proofs will change the more we understand the source they come from.
Baha'u'llah offers this is the illusion, what use are material proofs, they are all part of this illusion, a mere semblance of reality
"The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
My suggestion is to embrace the rational spiritual proofs, that have been given us in this material world and prove God by them..Embrace the explanations of Abdul'baha, embrace the Covernant of assurance of God given Proofs of God.
Regards Tony
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Faith is knowing nothing is certain, but that's okay. Que Sera Sera, "God's will be done."
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Well, that explains why you feel that way about beliefs. Nobody wants to feel self-deluded.
Beliefs are not only religious. After my late husband died in 2022, I 'believed' I was going to find another husband, like a man is something you pick up at a grocery store. Of course, I had no idea at the time that I was deluding myself, since I had never dated in my life, and my only romantic relationship was with my late husband of 37 years, which was arranged. It took a while to dispel that belief but it was a huge letdown when I finally realized that was not going to happen. Now I am at the opposite end of the spectrum, because I have given up all hope of ever marrying again. It would be a miracle if I ever married again and it would be because it was fated by God, not because I made it happen by anything I did.
I still have my religious beliefs but I have come to view them differently over the years, especially since I came to this forum.
I agree that life works out pretty much as it wants to whether I have a religious belief, or not. I believe "it is what it is", and much of that is unknown. I once believed that the truth was all signed, sealed, and delivered, but now I look at my fellow Baha'is who believe that as an outsider who still believes, yet questions many of those beliefs.
As a Baha'i I do my own thing, I always have, which is wholly separate from what the others in my community are doing, so I am kind of like an outsider looking in, an observer. I do not agree with all the beliefs the others hold dear because I question beliefs that make no sense to me, such as the belief that God is all-loving.
PureX
Veteran Member
As humans, we all share the same basic limitations. Believing is not knowing. And to pretend and proclaim that it is would be dishonest.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, they don't know, they only believe, but I would not call anyone dishonest, since they 'honestly believe' the rubbish that is in the Bible, such as the following, and it leads to arrogance.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1
No, you are wrong. Faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.
Read the previous post.
PureX
Veteran Member
That’s just self-delusion.
Because you don't understand it doesn't make it a delusion. Those of us who have faith KNOW it to be the truth. As Bob Dylan sang, "Don't criticize what you can't understand"
BTW, how do you know that you're alive?
As in "not debatable"? So you preach and those who disagree have the options of ignoring you or banging their heads against brick wall. Wonderful.
PureX
Veteran Member
What's to understand? You tell yourself that your believing is the same as knowing when it's not. And then you tell everyone else that, as well. But believing is not knowing. It's just convincing yourself that you're right when you don't really know if you're right or not. Religion is full of this kind of false pretense, mostly because the people that push it have no faith at all. So they have to rely on these kinds of false pretenses.
Real faith does not have to hide from the fact that we don't know. It's based on hope, not the pretense of our knowing anything.
Obviously you don't understand. Believing is knowing if you have faith. Your statement "It's just convincing yourself that you're right when you don't really know if you're right or not" proves my point.
Claiming that religion is full of this kind of false pretense, mostly because the people that push it have no faith at all. So they have to rely on these kinds of false pretenses clearly shows that you lack understanding. The phrase "people that push it have no faith at all" is nonsensical!
"Real faith does not have to hide from the fact that we don't know" is also absurd. "Faith is being sure of what we hope for, being certain of what we don't see" Hebrews 11:1 It most definitely is not based on hope.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
In my lifelong experience with Christians, I can honestly say that they actually do not know, but they are certainly convinced that they do. However, what they believe about what happens after death can have severe consequences for them, as I explained in several of my previous postings on the subject.
Such as these:
First post:
Where are the Dead?
I think this sounds like it makes sense.But I have read other passages that confuse me.:confused: I've been thinking about what you stated in your post, and it reinforces my conviction that what the Bible teaches about what happens to people after they die is clearly inaccurate and misleading...
www.religiousforums.com
Second post:
If there is a life after death.....
Your whole argument is based upon false premises. No messenger ever told me to jump off a bridge so it is not a message from a Messenger of God. Since no messenger ever said it, it cannot be something I don't want to hear. I'm all in with what the Messengers actually say. I don't pick and...
www.religiousforums.com
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Assurance needs evidence, otherwise it is a paper promise