Faith is being sure...

[Sgt. Pepper]

This is evidence the bible is not true. It is not plain to me god is needed to create the world.

In my opinion, Richard Dawkins accurately characterized the God of the Bible when he said, "The god of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." Yes, I believe he was definitely spot-on.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

In my opinion, Richard Dawkins accurately characterized the God of the Bible when he said, "The god of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." Yes, I believe he was spot-on.

Yeah, it depends on how you read it. Some just read the "loving" parts and forget the genocides.

 

[InChrist]

According to 2 Corinthians 13:5, Christians should test themselves to see if they are in the faith. It states, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" It is a commandment for a Christian to test their faith.

Yes, that is an important test.

 

[InChrist]

It's a definition found in a polemical piece by an unknown author which (a) shows nothing of the kind, and (b) ignores the fact that it is more than possible for one to entertain baseless assurances and erroneous convictions. In short, faith is an attitude, not a guarantee.

I believe there are various passages elsewhere which give solid assurance concerning faith in Jesus Christ…

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:11-13

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
1 John 5:20


Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:37-39

 

[Nakosis]

That all depends upon who or what you are trusting....

I will only trust a man on a dating site if he has been verified, but God cannot be verified.
All we can ever have is evidence for God, but there is no verifiable evidence for God, which is why the existence of God is not an established fact.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

There are many kinds of evidence, and not all evidence is verifiable. Verifiable evidence is proof because it establishes something as a fact.

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

Evidence comes in all forms. Like testimony for example.
The "jury" or you have to decide which is more believable.
Whether I agree or not, no one can deny you the right to make that determination.

 

[Nakosis]

Why not, because it would fail the test?

Because I've been there.
God forbid another person ends up like me.

 

[Nakosis]

You said that you were using "the definition of faith in the Bible," though.

Ok, you caught me.
I cheated by using a dictionary.
Should have know I can't slip anything past you.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe there are various passages elsewhere which give solid assurance concerning faith in Jesus Christ…

I really do not intend this as an argumentative response, but why on earth do you think that I would find any claim by Paul or the author of John "solid assurance" of anything whatsoever?

 

[InChrist]

I really do not intend this as an argumentative response, but why on earth do you think that I would find any claim by Paul or the author of John "solid assurance" of anything whatsoever?

I don’t expect you to.
I should have said believers, those who know Jesus Christ, have solid assurances.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

’m should have said believers, those who know Jesus Christ, have solid assurances.

... or believe they have.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

There are many discussions on this forum asking that Christian doctrines be proven (according to what one understands 'proof' to mean).

By 'proof', the person usually means "The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions". This reasoning is erroneously employed to show the validity of one's stated position of faith. However, this entirely misses the point...

Here is what the Bible clearly defines as faith: Hebrews 4:11 (NRSVue) shows the fundamental error of this approach: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

In other words, it is folly to apply the conventional standard of proof to one's religious convictions. Since it is both assurance and conviction, the conventional standard of proof clearly does not apply.

Isn't it about time that some people stopped challenging a person's faith by applying the principle of "proof"?

I notice you got your definition of "proof" from a dictionary, but your definition of "faith" from the Bible. Why? The Bible is not a dictionary, its purpose is not to document linguistic use. You sure you're not setting up something sus with this unusual maneuver? Why not cite the dictionary definition of faith?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok, you caught me.
I cheated by using a dictionary.
Should have know I can't slip anything past you.

You missed my point.

The Bible uses "faith" in the sense I talked about (loyalty to God and trust that God will keep his promises), not the way you suggested (firm belief without proof).

 

[Nakosis]

You missed my point.

The Bible uses "faith" in the sense I talked about (loyalty to God and trust that God will keep his promises), not the way you suggested (firm belief without proof).

I disagree.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I disagree.

Read the rest of Hebrews 11. Paul expands on the idea of "faith" with examples. They're almost all figures from the Old Testament like Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. They're figures who, according to the stories, had no shortage of direct proof of God's existence but had to trust that God would keep the promises he was making them. Paul repeatedly describes this trust as "faith" and tells readers to have the same sort of faith.

 

[Nakosis]

Read the rest of Hebrews 11. Paul expands on the idea of "faith" with examples. They're almost all figures from the Old Testament like Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. They're figures who, according to the stories, had no shortage of direct proof of God's existence but had to trust that God would keep the promises he was making them. Paul repeatedly describes this trust as "faith" and tells readers to have the same sort of faith.

Yes, we already went through this. Seems to me you are ignoring the context set by the very first passage so you can read something into the rest of the chapter that is not there.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would rather say that faith is built upon 'evidence' that gives us assurance and gives us hopes.
Thee is and never will be 'proof' that God exists or that any religion is the truth from God.

I like to go with Abdul'baha on this subject.

Proofs and Arguments for the Existence of God

Or

Rational Proofs and Traditional Arguments from the Sacred Scriptures

Regards Tony

 

[Niatero]

I think that the kind of faith that leads to the kingdom is not agreeing with some statements of belief. It's trust and confidence in Jesus, recognising and accepting him as a person to serve and obey above all others, and filled with a desire to learn to live the way he says to live.

 

[2ndpillar]

sola fide

Sola fide is a minority opinion of the daughters of a primary daughter of Babylon (Revelation 17:5), based on the "message" of the false prophet Paul, the "enemy" (Matthew 13:25), which is the message of "lawlessness", as in wickedness (Mt 13:49).

Justificatio sola fide (or simply sola fide), meaning justification by faith alone, is a soteriological doctrine in Christian theology commonly held to distinguish the Lutheran and Reformed traditions of Protestantism,[1] among others, from the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and Anabaptist churches.[2][3] The doctrine asserts that it is on the basis of faith alone that believers are made right of sin (such as their transgressions of divine law); and not on the basis of what Paul the Apostle calls "works of the law",[4] which sola fide proponents interpret as including not only moral, legal or ceremonial requirements but any good works or "works of charity."

Matthew 13:49 “ So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, ” King James Version (KJV)

 

[2ndpillar]

I like to go with Abdul'baha on this subject.

Proofs and Arguments for the Existence of God

Or

Rational Proofs and Traditional Arguments from the Sacred Scriptures

Regards Tony

If the father can't answer your questions, simply go to the son. What about the next ring of the ladder?

 

[Nakosis]

There are many discussions on this forum asking that Christian doctrines be proven (according to what one understands 'proof' to mean).

By 'proof', the person usually means "The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions". This reasoning is erroneously employed to show the validity of one's stated position of faith. However, this entirely misses the point...

Here is what the Bible clearly defines as faith: Hebrews 4:11 (NRSVue) shows the fundamental error of this approach: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

In other words, it is folly to apply the conventional standard of proof to one's religious convictions. Since it is both assurance and conviction, the conventional standard of proof clearly does not apply.

Isn't it about time that some people stopped challenging a person's faith by applying the principle of "proof"?

So then, where does faith come from?