Exploring Theisms: Timeless/Eternal

[Quintessence]

A component of some theologies is the belief that god(s) are timeless or eternal. The god(s) have always been here, and will always be here. Coupled with this is often the notion that god(s) are that which preceded the existence of time and space as we understand them.

What are some examples of religions that consider their god(s) to be timeless or eternal? If you are a theist, do you feel your god(s) to have this quality?

Let's dig deeper. What does it mean for a god to have that quality? How does it affect how we regard it, or how we as humans relate to it?

Remember, this is a discussion thread, and not for debate. Let's share and learn about the theological perspectives of the world!

 

[Guy Threepwood]

A component of some theologies is the belief that god(s) are timeless or eternal. The god(s) have always been here, and will always be here. Coupled with this is often the notion that god(s) are that which preceded the existence of time and space as we understand them.

What are some examples of religions that consider their god(s) to be timeless or eternal? If you are a theist, do you feel your god(s) to have this quality?

Let's dig deeper. What does it mean for a god to have that quality? How does it affect how we regard it, or how we as humans relate to it?

Remember, this is a discussion thread, and not for debate. Let's share and learn about the theological perspectives of the world!

I'd say for a God that created the universe, whatever name people may call him, time was one of his creations. Therefore he is not bound by his own laws.

Perhaps it doesn't make sense to say he 'preceded' time, as much as that he must transcend time.

Just as if you write a story with a timeline, you know the beginning and end, but you didn't exist before the beginning of the story from it's own perspective..

And this is where trust, faith comes into play, that God has an ending if he created a beginning, a plan, destiny, because it already exists as part of creation.

 

[Vouthon]

In my religion, Catholic Christianity, God is considered to have both the attributes of eternity and timelessness. While we are not ourselves 'eternal', since we are changeable mortal beings who perceive time as a dimension of our existence, we are thought to have been created by God with an immortal soul made in the image of His Eternal Being. As a result, our spirit naturally directs us to look beyond the circles of this changeable world where we can never hope to find lasting satisfaction and seek the Almighty, the Unconditioned First Cause, as our highest refuge. The grass wilts, the flowers droop but the Word of God abides forever. Only through union with Him in the Beatific Vision can we hope to find true and perpetual happiness, "treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys" to quote Jesus. This is everlasting life and it is our highest beatitude: to share through grace in God's eternal, timeless, divine life.

 

[Quintessence]

Just as if you write a story with a timeline, you know the beginning and end, but you didn't exist before the beginning of the story from it's own perspective..

And this is where trust, faith comes into play, that God has an ending if he created a beginning, a plan, destiny, because it already exists as part of creation.

This is a really interesting analogy! I think that we forget the limits of our own perspectives when approaching the world sometimes. It reminds me of this story: http://mylifeyoga.com/2013/04/13/two-twins-talking-in-the-womb/

 

[Quintessence]

In my religion, Catholic Christianity, God is considered to have both the attributes of eternity and timelessness. While we are not ourselves 'eternal', since we are changeable mortal beings who perceive time as a dimension of our existence, we are thought to have been created by God with an immortal soul made in the image of His Eternal Being. As a result, our spirit naturally directs us to look beyond the circles of this changeable world where we can never hope to find lasting satisfaction and seek the Almighty, the Unconditioned First Cause, as our highest refuge. The grass wilts, the flowers droop but the Word of God abides forever. Only through union with Him in the Beatific Vision can we hope to find true and perpetual happiness, "treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys" to quote Jesus. This is everlasting life and it our highest beatitude: to share through grace in God's eternal, timeless, divine life.

So in a sense, attributing eternity/timelessness to God is born out of dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the cyclical, transformative nature that seems to pervade in our universe? A want of having something permanent? Does this imply in some sense a rejection of the universe and of nature? Of viewing those things as "bad" or perhaps at least "not particularly good?"

Change does seem to be a hard thing for us humans to wrestle with. With that, I can see how the idea of a changeless thing has appeal.

 

[Tumah]

A component of some theologies is the belief that god(s) are timeless or eternal. The god(s) have always been here, and will always be here. Coupled with this is often the notion that god(s) are that which preceded the existence of time and space as we understand them.

What are some examples of religions that consider their god(s) to be timeless or eternal? If you are a theist, do you feel your god(s) to have this quality?

Let's dig deeper. What does it mean for a god to have that quality? How does it affect how we regard it, or how we as humans relate to it?

Remember, this is a discussion thread, and not for debate. Let's share and learn about the theological perspectives of the world!

I think in Judaism, the concept of G-d being timeless or eternal is not a quality of G-d as much as a side effect of being the Creator of time. If we were to remove every dimension including that of time, we wouldn't say that G-d is eternal or timeless, because those are descriptions that are bound to a dimension of time- without time, there is no concept of timelessness. Instead we would say that time and its qualities and descriptions are simply not relevant to Him.

I think this concept adds a dimension of awe to G-d, an understanding that G-d is so totally beyond anything that we can possibly comprehend. And to study that relationship between the Simple and the Complex which was created all for our sake, lends us a measure of self-worth, responsibility and love.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

This is a really interesting analogy! I think that we forget the limits of our own perspectives when approaching the world sometimes. It reminds me of this story: http://mylifeyoga.com/2013/04/13/two-twins-talking-in-the-womb/

Thanks for the link I hadn't seen that. Yes, like the twins we learn and grow in the only reality we know, for no further purpose?

perhaps we should leave this world as we entered it, ready for what's next!

 

[mystic64]

A component of some theologies is the belief that god(s) are timeless or eternal. The god(s) have always been here, and will always be here. Coupled with this is often the notion that god(s) are that which preceded the existence of time and space as we understand them.

What are some examples of religions that consider their god(s) to be timeless or eternal? If you are a theist, do you feel your god(s) to have this quality?

Let's dig deeper. What does it mean for a god to have that quality? How does it affect how we regard it, or how we as humans relate to it?

Remember, this is a discussion thread, and not for debate. Let's share and learn about the theological perspectives of the world!

Quintessence, you present some of the most interesting things. I am a theist. Is my God timeless/eternal? I do not know . But as far as I am concerned He is timeless and eternal. What does it mean for a god to have that quality? How does it affect how we regard it, or how we relate to it? Quintessence, I love those questions ! They can take one to a place where no one has ever gone before. What does it mean for a god to have that quality? I guess for me that it doesn't mean anything. To me it is about how this timeless entity interacts with me at my own level in a personal sense. A god that has the quality of timeless/eternal does create the possibility that it is an entity that has knowledge and understandings that could be helpful to a young entity such as me, at least relative to timeless and eternal, who is not timeless or eternal. If it is capable of or willing to interact with me. And the thing about religions that are theist is that they have writings and beliefs that give one clues on how to extablish a relationship with something that is thought of have been around for a long time and something that carries a tremendous amount of knowledge and understanding. To me Quintessence it is about practicality not about threat. To some folks it is about threat, you either worship the bugger or you will be punished. To me it is not about that because to me I refuse to worship any entity that is not loving even if I will be punished. I am bull headed about that . So the God that I worship is timeless/eternal, is loving, and is capable of interacting with me in a personal sense . And the God that I worship is like a loving innocent child and timelessness and eternity doesn't seem to have made a dent in "its" enthusiasm and joy of existence. I don't know, how does one deal with a timeless ancient entity that is like an excited child that wants you to come out and play? I just don't know I am old and out of the habbit. I just want to sit quietly out on the front stoop and watch life go by.

 

[idav]

The abrahmics believe god is eternal.

My belief is that higher energies and higher masses dilates time and therefore light is an example of something likely timeless. To me the singularity would have been God with ultimate power over space and time. Science theories and experiments back up those attributes.

 

[Vouthon]

So in a sense, attributing eternity/timelessness to God is born out of dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the cyclical, transformative nature that seems to pervade in our universe? A want of having something permanent? Does this imply in some sense a rejection of the universe and of nature? Of viewing those things as "bad" or perhaps at least "not particularly good?"

Change does seem to be a hard thing for us humans to wrestle with. With that, I can see how the idea of a changeless thing has appeal.

Yes, I would say that dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the apparently ephemeral or fleeting nature of life is definitely a determining factor.

However this need not always lead to a longing for an eternal "god" or "gods" in the sense of 'concious being(s)'. Buddhism and Taoism are both attempts to solve this same dilemma of impermanence and dissatisfaction with change from explicitly non-theistic/atheistic perspectives. So it can take a theistic or a non-theistic form.

In terms of rejecting nature or the universe, this may be the case in some religions and philosophies (ie Gnosticism) but it is not in accordance with Catholic theology. We do not view the universe or nature as "bad" or even "not particularly good". We actually believe that God is "in" everything and pervades His creation, with His Divine Essence and power keeping everything in existence. So creation is good, the body and material reality is good, the universe is good.

Creation, according to Catholic thought, is a "self-communication" of God. It is essentially a means by which the Eternal God, out of sheer goodness and love, communicates Himself to other beings that He has created. The creation is therefore made for the glory of God and will "return" to Him. I would view it sort of like the current of the sea. It flows out from God, eternity, into creation in time and then in the natural order flows back to Him again. This is how many Catholic mystics understood it, ie:

"...God is a flowing and ebbing sea which ceaselessly flows out into all his beloved according to their needs and merits and which flows back with all those upon whom he has bestowed his gifts in heaven and on earth, together with all they possess or are capable of. This is that Wayless Being which all fervent interior spirits have chosen above all things, that dark stillness in which all lovers lose their way. If we could prepare ourselves through virtue in the ways I have shown, we would at once strip ourselves of our bodies and flow into the wild waves of the Sea, from which no creature could ever draw us back...."

- Blessed John of Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), The Spiritual Espousals​

So its not about "rejecting" the world so much as "returning" to its ultimate source.

God is expressing Himself through creation much like an artist expresses Himself through a painting or a novel. However the difference is that an artist or a novelist creates inanimate, abstract objects that have no inherent reality. When God creates, He creates realities including free-willed, concious beings like ourselves. In the end, while the piece of art is beautiful and communicates something of the artist himself (being an expression of Him) it "isn't" the artist Himself. Therefore, human beings being created in the image of the artist, seek not only the art but the artist Himself and Union with Him.

Therefore, we believe that creation is not perfect. This might seem akin to "not particularly good" but it isn't. For while the universe is "good", it is not "perfect" in the sense that it cannot possibly fulfil all of our desires. Since we are a union of body and soul, it naturally follows that the material (if one adheres to such a belief in the first instance) cannot hope to satisfy all the urgings of the human spirit. If it could, then we would surely not have created ideas of "afterlives" and "disembodied" souls in the first place. To live in the world is to experience both sadness and joy. No one can find lasting happiness from purely material things in an impermanent world marked by constant change.

That is why the early Christian ascetics who took to the deserts of Egypt and Syria in the third century AD, fleeing the pleasures of the Roman Empire, sought after something they called "apatheia" which translates as "a state of imperturbable calm", a joy and serenity not marked by the changeability found in the world, a 'happiness' that never changes and lasts forever. The point is though, since God is "in" the world we can experience something close to this ultimate "eternal bliss" while still in this present world, through Union with God. So there is no radical separation between an "evil" material world and a "good" spiritual one as in some forms of Gnosticism. Union with God is something to be pursued in the here and now.

The Church officially teaches that God created the universe in a "state of journeying" towards fulfilment, the same fulfilment that the human spirit longs for as well: "that God might be All in All":

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm

III. "THE WORLD WAS CREATED FOR THE GLORY OF GOD"

293 Scripture and Tradition never cease to teach and celebrate this fundamental truth: "The world was made for the glory of God."134 St. Bonaventure explains that God created all things "not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to communicate it",135 for God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness: "Creatures came into existence when the key of love opened his hand."136 The First Vatican Council explains:

This one, true God, of his own goodness and "almighty power", not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel "and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . ."137

294 The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us "to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace",138 for "the glory of God is man fully alive; moreover man's life is the vision of God: if God's revelation through creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on earth, how much more will the Word's manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God."139 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God "who is the creator of all things may at last become "all in all", thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude."140...

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection [eternity]. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175​

So while we would argue that as it is now the material universe cannot satisfy us entirely, this is not a rejection of the world or a denunciation of it as "evil". Like us, it too is "progressing" towards perfection in God. It will "flow" back into Him from whence it came, so to speak.

 

[Jainarayan]

If you are a theist, do you feel your god(s) to have this quality?

The gods of Heathenry are not eternal, but what I do believe to be eternal are the cycles of existence.

 

[Quintessence]

I think in Judaism, the concept of G-d being timeless or eternal is not a quality of G-d as much as a side effect of being the Creator of time. If we were to remove every dimension including that of time, we wouldn't say that G-d is eternal or timeless, because those are descriptions that are bound to a dimension of time- without time, there is no concept of timelessness. Instead we would say that time and its qualities and descriptions are simply not relevant to Him.

I think this concept adds a dimension of awe to G-d, an understanding that G-d is so totally beyond anything that we can possibly comprehend. And to study that relationship between the Simple and the Complex which was created all for our sake, lends us a measure of self-worth, responsibility and love.

That's very insightful to recognize that the idea of timelessness and eternity are something of a relative concept - a contrast to something else. It's been my general understanding that the one-god of the Abrahamic religions has this numinous mysterious beyond-ness, but that seems to be emphasized in Judaism in particular, right? Theology is a strange thing for a god like that, isn't it? As we explore theology, we aim to put things in a box - delineate their edges and their borders, or categorize and itemize. Yet just as a mystery stops being a mystery once we shine a light on it, the moment we define such a god, our definition completely ceases to represent what it is...

You know, I think one of the reasons I opt for polytheism is because it gives me less headaches.

 

[Tumah]

That's very insightful to recognize that the idea of timelessness and eternity are something of a relative concept - a contrast to something else. It's been my general understanding that the one-god of the Abrahamic religions has this numinous mysterious beyond-ness, but that seems to be emphasized in Judaism in particular, right? Theology is a strange thing for a god like that, isn't it? As we explore theology, we aim to put things in a box - delineate their edges and their borders, or categorize and itemize. Yet just as a mystery stops being a mystery once we shine a light on it, the moment we define such a god, our definition completely ceases to represent what it is...

You know, I think one of the reasons I opt for polytheism is because it gives me less headaches.

I can't claim that insight for myself. I just applied a more general idea I found in some Jewish literature discussing the concept of the Divine Oneness to this specific example.
But yeah, I guess when you adhere to apophatic theology, your approach is going to be a little different.

 

[Vouthon]

That's very insightful to recognize that the idea of timelessness and eternity are something of a relative concept - a contrast to something else. It's been my general understanding that the one-god of the Abrahamic religions has this numinous mysterious beyond-ness, but that seems to be emphasized in Judaism in particular, right? Theology is a strange thing for a god like that, isn't it? As we explore theology, we aim to put things in a box - delineate their edges and their borders, or categorize and itemize. Yet just as a mystery stops being a mystery once we shine a light on it, the moment we define such a god, our definition completely ceases to represent what it is...

You know, I think one of the reasons I opt for polytheism is because it gives me less headaches.

This is very true, I particularly like when you noted that, "the moment we define such a god, our definition completely ceases to represent what it is". You have described the very essence of the 'apophatic' or 'via negativa' approach to God, which is considered to be the highest science in Catholic theology:

"...The ultimate reach of our knowledge of God consists in realizing that we do not know him. For then we grasp that what God is surpasses all we understand of Him...God eludes every conception of our intelligence, so that it cannot grasp him...We cannot give God a name that defines or includes or equals his essence since we do not know to that extent what God is...God eludes the conception of our intellect because he transcends all that our mind conceives of him...It is because human intelligence is not equal to the divine essence that this same divine essence surpasses our intelligence and is unknown to us: wherefore man reaches the highest point of his knowledge about God when he knows that he knows him not, inasmuch as he knows that that which is God transcends whatsoever he conceives of him..."

- Saint Thomas Aquinas (De Potentia VII, 5, ad 14)
​

Apophatic theology has traditionally been considered superior to cataphatic in the Catholic tradition, despite both having a treasured place in our spiritual patrimony. As Meister Eckhart put it in the 13th century, "I pray God to make me free of God, for unconditioned Being is above God and all distinctions".

This was excellently explained by St. John of the Cross (1542-1591) in his 'Verses on the ecstasy of deep contemplation':

The Song of the Soul that Delights in Reaching the Supreme State of perfection, that is, the union with God, by the path of spiritual negation

- Verses on the Ecstasy of Deep Contemplation


I entered where there is no knowing,
and unknowing I remained,
all knowledge there transcending.

I

Where no knowing is I entered,
yet when I my own self saw there
without knowing where I rested
great things I understood there,
yet cannot say what I felt there,
since I rested in unknowing,
all knowledge there transcending.

II

Of peace and of holy good
there was perfect knowing,
in profoundest solitude
the only true way seeing,
yet so secret is the thing
that I was left here stammering,
all knowledge there transcending.

III

I was left there so absorbed,
so entranced, and so removed,
that my senses were abroad,
robbed of all sensation proved,
and my spirit then was moved
with an unknown knowing,
all knowledge there transcending.

IV

He who reaches there in truth
from himself is parted though,
and all that before he knew
seems to him but base below,
his knowledge increases so
that knowledge has an ending,
all knowledge there transcending.

V

The higher he climbs however
the less he’ll ever understand,
because the cloud grows darker
that lit the night on every hand:
whoever visits this dark land
rests forever in unknowing,
all knowledge there transcending.

VI

This knowledge of unknowing
is of so profound a power
that no wise men arguing
will ever supersede its hour:
their wisdom cannot reach the tower
where knowing has an ending,
all knowledge there transcending.

VII

It is of such true excellence
this highest understanding,
no science, no human sense,
has it in its grasping,
yet he who, by self-conquering
grasps knowing in unknowing,
goes evermore transcending.


VIII

And in the deepest sense,
this highest knowledge lies,
of the divine essence,
if you would be wise:
his mercy so it does comprise,
each one leaving in unknowing,all knowledge there transcending"​

 

[Quintessence]

The gods of Heathenry are not eternal, but what I do believe to be eternal are the cycles of existence.

Some would perhaps say "but gods have to be eternal! If they aren't eternal, they aren't gods!" How might you respond to that?

What I'm more interested in, is how that non-eternal status affects how one relates to the gods, or how we see them in general. It becomes a complicated question. Really, the issue on the whole can become complicated, but maybe that's just me because my answer to "are gods eternal" is... really rather complicated because of how I regard the otherworlds. As an example Sun Spirit (just the sun to most people) clearly is going to have a beginning and end to it with respect to how we understand and perceive time and space. Yet all the moments of back-then and tomorrows perpetually exist in eternity as far as the otherworlds are concerned, and even if something "dies" and doesn't exist in our space-time, it can be accessed at any time in the otherworlds. Yes, I know... I'm weird

 

[Kirran]

I would also say that God is being the concept of time, and so might be called timeless. Although really God is also beyond timelessness.

 

[Quintessence]

I learned a new word today: apophatic.

Two new words, potentially. What is cataphatic, @Vouthon ?

 

[Vouthon]

I learned a new word today: apophatic.

Two new words, potentially. What is cataphatic, @Vouthon ?

Cataphatic theology is the opposite of apophatic theology. Basically, it approaches God through the use of 'positive' terms and images such as, 'God is good,' or 'God is merciful' whereas the apophatic describes God 'negatively' by means of what He is not, since He is held in essence to be unknowable and beyond all conceptions.

Catholic theology makes use of both but the apophatic is considered to be superior on the basis that it is more accurate, ultimately, in its approach to the reality of God.

 

[Jainarayan]

Some would perhaps say "but gods have to be eternal! If they aren't eternal, they aren't gods!" How might you respond to that?

Good question... I'd say that we have to re-think what a God/dess is. If we ditch the idea of the God of the Bible, and think of Gods as elder, more powerful, wiser beings than we are, then I think we're good to go. We tend to use Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah as the yardstick for divinity and a deity. Not saying that God is more powerful than others, it's just that's the general conception of a God, and not necessarily the way it should be (or is).

 

[mystic64]

Some would perhaps say "but gods have to be eternal! If they aren't eternal, they aren't gods!" How might you respond to that?

What I'm more interested in, is how that non-eternal status affects how one relates to the gods, or how we see them in general. It becomes a complicated question. Really, the issue on the whole can become complicated, but maybe that's just me because my answer to "are gods eternal" is... really rather complicated because of how I regard the otherworlds. As an example Sun Spirit (just the sun to most people) clearly is going to have a beginning and end to it with respect to how we understand and perceive time and space. Yet all the moments of back-then and tomorrows perpetually exist in eternity as far as the otherworlds are concerned, and even if something "dies" and doesn't exist in our space-time, it can be accessed at any time in the otherworlds. Yes, I know... I'm weird

Sir you are not weird . You are just a deep thinker that has been out there and had a look at things. And the fact that one can still access it at anytime is the "kicker"! And on top of that this whatever it is that maintains this eternal record will also interact with one directly on a one on one bases. Quintessence, I have studied the Druid Magic and the foundation knowledge that it came from, so I do understand what you mean when you refer to the "otherworlds". And they do exist. But my approach to the concept that you are presenting is that there are two things that are going on. One is a mind memory reality and the other is an actual physical reality. The mind memory reality is like a giant computer library with an automated librarian that will interact with one. The physical reality is like a multi dimensional reality that is filled with physical worlds that are occupied by living things with conscious minds. And one can either visit these physical worlds for information or one can visit the library for information. And the libray is eternal and contains the sum total of all experience.

"The gods have to be eternal! If they are not eternal, they aren't gods!" What I am interested in, is how that non-eternal status affects how one relates to the gods, or how we see them?" As an aspect Quintessence of what you are presenting as a question, there is an interesting case being presented that the gods are of extra terrestrial origin. And that they are beings that have visited this planet at different times through out the history of humankind. Now what does that have to do with the questions that you are presenting? Any being that has miraculous abilities or technology that is interpreted as miraculous abilities is for all practical purposes, a "god". Especially when it comes the the mind of primative man. And apparently these folks with very advanced technologies were also able to commingle (mix their genetics) with humankind. Now I bring this up in responce to your questions because this evidence that is being presented bothers me. And this is because the god that I worship is not extra terrestrial and not just extremely long lived because of advanced technology. Or is he ? Which then brings things back to your question, "Do the gods or God have to be truly eternal? After a lot of soul searching my answer to your question is that, "I will not worship any being that is not a loving entity."

Now with that said, I am extremely empathic with some telepathic ability. And all conscousious minds are connected. It is kind of like there is a mind internet out there that one can access if one is sensitive enough to pick up mind frequencies. And it can be a dangerous place to play in because there are some minds that you just plain do not want to access. Your training Quintessence teaches you the paths to some of these minds and which minds are safe and which ones are not. And these minds are beings that exist in the "otherworlds" and some are considered gods and some of them aren't. But, they are real. And these "otherworlds" are also real. And the question of eternal really doesn't matter. So the question becomes, "Why does it matter to "me" why my God (the Father of Lord Jesus) is eternal, has always been in existence, and always will be in existence?" Damn, that is a terrible question sir because it questions my faith in what I have been taught as being an absolute. No other reason .