Evolution My ToE

[Dan From Smithville]

Sometimes one creationist with a wacky interpretation of Genesis gets into an argument with another creationist with a wacky interpretation of Genesis. Then it's popcorn time!

Is it ever!

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sometimes one creationist with a wacky interpretation of Genesis gets into an argument with another creationist with a wacky interpretation of Genesis. Then it's popcorn time!

I wish I could give this more than one positive rating.

 

[McBell]

Have you ever noticed that what some have to say is unimportant and there is no point to read their words?

I wish creationists would come up with something new.
All they do is reword the same old nonsense and present it like it is completely new and ground breaking.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I wish creationists would come up with something new.
All they do is reword the same old nonsense and present it like it is completely new and ground breaking.

It is something that you have to get used to. It is all they have.

 

[McBell]

It is something that you have to get used to. It is all they have.

Still gets gawd awful boring...

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wish creationists would come up with something new.
All they do is reword the same old nonsense and present it like it is completely new and ground breaking.

I know. It gets boring. Very very rarely they find something new. And you know what happens? I learn something new. I remember one case where bird footprints were found in strata far too young for bird footprints. It turns out that the footprints were in a mountainous area and the strata had been misdated.

I grew up and went to college in Minnesota. For sedimentary rocks Minnesota is pretty boring. Flat, one layer laying on top of another with no folds, no faults, nothing that complicated analysis. The university that I went to knew this so our field geology class was an eight week long field trip near Gunnison Colorado. The Rocky Mountains have some very interesting geology. The area that I was mapping had a thrust fault in it. Which was the problem with the bird footprint strata. It can be difficult to identify thrust faults and if one is not very familiar with the strata one might misdate a layer.

But it has been years since I was presented such a problem. Today it is simply denial and endless PRATT's almost all of them at least thirty years old.

 

[YoursTrue]

Not really. Look at the several days between which Noah sent out the birds to look for fresh growth. Not like we could wave that away. Then we see God gave several reference points as to how long the flood lasted when it started when it ended etc. No way to wave that away.
The years, depending on what source we use from the garden until the flood were something like a little over 1600 years. That is how much time we have for the various 'geologic ages' to have happened. Why, have you some reason to dobt this was the case?

Not really. Look at the several days between which Noah sent out the birds to look for fresh growth. Not like we could wave that away. Then we see God gave several reference points as to how long the flood lasted when it started when it ended etc. No way to wave that away.
The years, depending on what source we use from the garden until the flood were something like a little over 1600 years. That is how much time we have for the various 'geologic ages' to have happened. Why, have you some reason to dobt this was the case?

If you really think each 'day' of creation is 24 hours each, you might figure that the last day of creation is not said to be over. But if you think that a day always means 24 hours, all I can say is, oh well.

 

[YoursTrue]

Not really. Look at the several days between which Noah sent out the birds to look for fresh growth. Not like we could wave that away. Then we see God gave several reference points as to how long the flood lasted when it started when it ended etc. No way to wave that away.
The years, depending on what source we use from the garden until the flood were something like a little over 1600 years. That is how much time we have for the various 'geologic ages' to have happened. Why, have you some reason to dobt this was the case?

I don't doubt the historicity of the Bible. But each day of creation simply and yes I mean simply, obviously, and evidently, does not equate to 24 hours each.

 

[Polymath257]

Going back to article and study:
"Dogs have 76 chromosomes. Most of these cells contain a nucleus. In dogs, 38 pairs of autosomes (non-sex chromosomes) can be found in every nucleus, for a total of 76 chromosomes plus the two sex chromosomes (X and Y) for a grand total of 78."
(Online Research Resources Developed at NHGRI)
Now I must say I don't understand all of this, however, that's what it says. 76 chromosomes. That's for dogs. I hope to move on to other organisms later. It has been ascertained that dogs have 76 chromosomes. I have to keep repeating that to remember it. 76--chromosomes--dogs.
Continuing -- recognizing I'm just not as smart as you guys, I appreciate the language in the article cited above, but still have questions. So here's a bit more of it: (I may comment sentence by sentence.)
"A dog's body contains trillions of cells."
OK, a dog's body contains trillions of cells. (Wow, TRILLIONS -- that's a lot.)
"Most of these cells contain a nucleus."
OK, most of those trillions of cells contain a nucleus.
Then it says, "In dogs, 38 pairs of autosomes (non-sex chromosomes) can be found in every nucleus, for a total of 76 chromosomes plus the two sex chromosomes (X and Y) for a grand total of 78."
So in every nucleus (and not every cell has a nucleus) there are in dogs 38 pairs of non-sex chromosomes, plus two sex chromosomes. X and Y. ok, so actually it is 78? or is it 76? Just for clarity, why say a dog has 76 chromosomes if they have 78? But that doesn't really matter too much right now because that's not what my point is. Although which is it, 76 or 78? So in summation, dogs have in most cells 76 chromosomes plus 2 sex chromosomes = 78. 76 really plus two. in each cell with a nucleus.

It seems clear enough: 38 pairs of autosomal chromosomes plus 1 pair of sex chromosomes. That gives a grand total of 78 chromosomes. Unlike the autosomal chromosomes, males and females get different sex chromosomes (XY for males and XX for females---in mammals. In birds males often have ZZ and females have WZ.)

Just like humans have 46, domestic cats have 38, goldfish have 94, and spinach has 12.

List of organisms by chromosome count - Wikipedia

 

[YoursTrue]

It seems clear enough: 38 pairs of autosomal chromosomes plus 1 pair of sex chromosomes. That gives a grand total of 78 chromosomes. Unlike the autosomal chromosomes, males and females get different sex chromosomes (XY for males and XX for females---in mammals. In birds males often have ZZ and females have WZ.)

Just like humans have 46, domestic cats have 38, goldfish have 94, and spinach has 12.

List of organisms by chromosome count - Wikipedia

OK, thank you. How is DNA different from chromosomes?

 

[Polymath257]

OK, thank you. How is DNA different from chromosomes?

Chromosomes are made from DNA and supporting proteins called histones. The DNA wraps around the histones, forming a compact structure that can be seen in the nucleus of cells--the chromosomes. The chromosomes are particularly visible when the cells are dividing.

In most organisms, the chromosomes come in pairs, which allows for two copies of the DNA. But the sex chromosomes are different in that regard, with male mammals getting two different chromosomes (X and Y---the Y is much smaller) and females getting two X chromosomes. Other types of animals and plants have slightly different systems and in many animals (fish, frogs, some lizards), gender is not determined by chromosomes, but by external factors, like temperature. Some species of fish can change from female to male and then back during their lifetime.

Also, chromosomes are of different sizes and are generally labeled (in any species) by their size. In some species, there can also be a number of 'microchromosomes' that are much smaller than the 'macrochromosomes'.

During reproduction, the sperm and egg cells only get one chromosome from each pair (not the usual two). When sperm and egg combine at fertilization, the total chromosome number is restored.

So, just as dogs have 38 pairs of non-sex chromosomes and 1 pair of sex chromosomes, for a total of 78 chromosomes, humans have 22 pairs of non-sex chromosomes and 1 pair of sex chromosomes, for a total of 46.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Still gets gawd awful boring...

I wish creationists would stop claiming to know science and then proceed to demonstrate they do not.

 

[YoursTrue]

It seems clear enough: 38 pairs of autosomal chromosomes plus 1 pair of sex chromosomes. That gives a grand total of 78 chromosomes. Unlike the autosomal chromosomes, males and females get different sex chromosomes (XY for males and XX for females---in mammals. In birds males often have ZZ and females have WZ.)

Just like humans have 46, domestic cats have 38, goldfish have 94, and spinach has 12.

List of organisms by chromosome count - Wikipedia

OK, so thank you for your answers. So here is my question: Humans have 46 chromosomes, domestic cats have 38, etc. So do humans have 38 chromosomes that a domestic cat would have? I mean, the 38 chromosomes the domestic cat has, are these chromosomes the same from cat to cat?

 

[Polymath257]

OK, so thank you for your answers. So here is my question: Humans have 46 chromosomes, domestic cats have 38, etc. So do humans have 38 chromosomes that a domestic cat would have? I mean, the 38 chromosomes the domestic cat has, are these chromosomes the same from cat to cat?

Well, there will be minor variations from cat to cat in the same way there are minor variations from humans to human. So, chromosomes have 'bands' of dark and light areas (corresponding to how much histone there is) and the DNA coding for any particular protein will be associated with a particular band. But the specific DNA sequences can be different. This is one way it is possible to tell the chromosomes from different species: they have different banding patterns even if they have the same number of chromosomes.

But major differences are usually associated with disease. For example, Down's syndrome happens when there are three chromosomes in one of the usual 'pairs'.

Also, different species of cat will be different, some species having 36 chromosomes, instead of 38.

 

[Bear Wild]

OK, so thank you for your answers. So here is my question: Humans have 46 chromosomes, domestic cats have 38, etc. So do humans have 38 chromosomes that a domestic cat would have? I mean, the 38 chromosomes the domestic cat has, are these chromosomes the same from cat to cat?

The number of chromosomes does not equate to the total genetic sequences. Humans, cats and dogs share extensive genetic material. The chromosomes only represents the way the genetic material is grouped together/ "packaged" together. In a 2007 study cats share about 90 percent of the same genetic material with humans. The number of chromosomes does not equate to the total genetic material an organism has. The amount of shared DNA is one of the clear pieces of evidence that supports evolution. Most of the differences in the dna is centered around phenotypic expression and differences in immune presentation. Most of the critical genetic code is well preserved. If we look at a critical gene such as the foxp2 gene critical in language there is only one amino acid substitution between mice and apes and two substitutions differentiating humans despite vast differences in the aptitude for language. Genetics shows just how closely we are related.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The number of chromosomes does not equate to the total genetic sequences. Humans, cats and dogs share extensive genetic material. The chromosomes only represents the way the genetic material is grouped together/ "packaged" together. In a 2007 study cats share about 90 percent of the same genetic material with humans. The number of chromosomes does not equate to the total genetic material an organism has. The amount of shared DNA is one of the clear pieces of evidence that supports evolution. Most of the differences in the dna is centered around phenotypic expression and differences in immune presentation. Most of the critical genetic code is well preserved. If we look at a critical gene such as the foxp2 gene critical in language there is only one amino acid substitution between mice and apes and two substitutions differentiating humans despite vast differences in the aptitude for language. Genetics shows just how closely we are related.

Nor is the number of chromosomes that big of a matter. They can vary within species and vary wildly in two species that are close enough to breed. For example horses and zebras are closely related enough so that they can breed and have sterile hybrids. Horses have 64 Chromosome, Zebras have between 32 and 46 chromosomes and yet they can interbreed. From the Wiki article on Zebroids:

Genetics[edit]
Donkeys and wild equids have different numbers of chromosomes. A donkey has 62 chromosomes; the zebra has between 32 and 46 (depending on the species). In spite of this difference, viable hybrids are possible, provided the gene combination in the hybrid allows for embryonic development to birth. A hybrid has a number of chromosomes somewhere in between. The chromosome difference makes female hybrids poorly fertile and male hybrids generally sterile, due to a phenomenon called Haldane's rule. The difference in chromosome number is most likely due to horses having two longer chromosomes that contain similar gene content to four zebra chromosomes.[7] Horses have 64 chromosomes, while most zebroids end up with 54 chromosomes.

Zebroid - Wikipedia

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Nor is the number of chromosomes that big of a matter. They can vary within species and vary wildly in two species that are close enough to breed. For example horses and zebras are closely related enough so that they can breed and have sterile hybrids. Horses have 64 Chromosome, Zebras have between 32 and 46 chromosomes and yet they can interbreed. From the Wiki article on Zebroids:

Genetics[edit]
Donkeys and wild equids have different numbers of chromosomes. A donkey has 62 chromosomes; the zebra has between 32 and 46 (depending on the species). In spite of this difference, viable hybrids are possible, provided the gene combination in the hybrid allows for embryonic development to birth. A hybrid has a number of chromosomes somewhere in between. The chromosome difference makes female hybrids poorly fertile and male hybrids generally sterile, due to a phenomenon called Haldane's rule. The difference in chromosome number is most likely due to horses having two longer chromosomes that contain similar gene content to four zebra chromosomes.[7] Horses have 64 chromosomes, while most zebroids end up with 54 chromosomes.

Zebroid - Wikipedia

Ploidy can result in speciation too. Where the sister species can even overlap in range and not interbreed. Hyla versicolor and Hyla chrysoscelis are two treefrog species found in Missouri that are indistinguishable by external morphology, yet are two distinct species that do not breed together. One is a diploid and the other is tetraploid.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ploidy can result in speciation too. Where the sister species can even overlap in range and not interbreed. Hyla versicolor and Hyla chrysoscelis are two treefrog species found in Missouri that are indistinguishable by external morphology, yet are two distinct species that do not breed together. One is a diploid and the other is tetraploid.

English, man! If you want me to understand you you need to speak English!

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Well, there will be minor variations from cat to cat in the same way there are minor variations from humans to human. So, chromosomes have 'bands' of dark and light areas (corresponding to how much histone there is) and the DNA coding for any particular protein will be associated with a particular band. But the specific DNA sequences can be different. This is one way it is possible to tell the chromosomes from different species: they have different banding patterns even if they have the same number of chromosomes.

But major differences are usually associated with disease. For example, Down's syndrome happens when there are three chromosomes in one of the usual 'pairs'.

Also, different species of cat will be different, some species having 36 chromosomes, instead of 38.

In addition to aneuploidy, chromosomes can undergo a number of mutations. Inversions, translocations, deletions, fusions and multiple duplications have been observed. Human chromosome 2 is an end to end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes explaining the difference between human and chimpanzee karyotypes.

Long ago, I studied cytogenetics before turning to entomology. I regularly induced mutations using readily available materials like celery extract and herbicides. Even more interesting aberrations can be produced by exposing root tip cells or snail embryos to those mutagens. Chromosomal bridging at anaphase was common and lethal. This is when sister chromatids fuse at the ends and fail to separate during mitosis.

It has been a long time since I dredged that up.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

English, man! If you want me to understand you you need to speak English!

Ploidy is chromosome duplication. Diploid is two homologous chromosomes in the nucleus. A total of 23 pairs in humans. Tetraploid is four homologous chromosomes. In humans this would be 23 quads. Not that something like that exists, but for illustration.

Aneuploidy is duplication of only one chromatid of the paired chromosomes. Trisomy 21 that results in Down's syndrome. Another example is the XYY, so called 'super males'.