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Evolution and God

(Q)

Active Member
No one will ever win this debate,neither side has solid proof to back thier belief.

What debate is there to win? Those who refuse to acknowledge evolution in favor of creationism cannot provide a reasonable argument against evolution or in their favor. In fact, few here actually know what evolution is all about, while the rest continue to argue against it. Quite funny actually.

Arguing against evolution is arguing against your very existence. It is a fact of life.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
(Q) said:
No one will ever win this debate,neither side has solid proof to back thier belief.

What debate is there to win? Those who refuse to acknowledge evolution in favor of creationism cannot provide a reasonable argument against evolution or in their favor. In fact, few here actually know what evolution is all about, while the rest continue to argue against it. Quite funny actually.

Arguing against evolution is arguing against your very existence. It is a fact of life.

Scientifically it cannot be a fact. Your statement is misleading an inceredibly presumptuous. There are many arguments for and against evolution, but the bottom line is that you will continue to believe whatever you want, as will those that oppose your ideas. Don't try to say you have a corner on absolute truth, for you do not. Proponents of evolution and atheism often cite the impossibility of knowledge. I assume you fall into the same category (and if you do not I apologize), so please do not contradict yourself.

Science admits it is flawed in more areas than not, so please don't overstep the boundaries of your convictions.
 

(Q)

Active Member
There are many arguments for and against evolution

Unfortunately, arguments against evolution have been refuted. Please show me one credible argument against evolution that has not been refuted.

the bottom line is that you will continue to believe whatever you want

It's not so much a matter of belief but instead a matter of evidence for or against.

I can read about a theory, pour over the mathematics and conclude the theory can make the predictions it purports. Personally, if I am able, I will try and reproduce the experiment myself in order to confirm my conclusions.

Don't try to say you have a corner on absolute truth, for you do not.

I don't deal in truths - I deal with evidence. Big difference.

Proponents of evolution and atheism often cite the impossibility of knowledge.

You'll need to expand on this one before I can comment. What exactly do you mean?

Science admits it is flawed in more areas than not

Really? Can you provide examples of "flawed" science. And I don't mean crackpot/crank science.

please don't overstep the boundaries of your convictions.

I dare say I have not done that. However, I would like to give you the opportunity to refute any evidence in favor of evolution, as that is what appears to be your point of contention. Or is it?
 

(Q)

Active Member
I was afraid of this. I hope that my non-expert opinions aren't too far off the mark.

I think you have been doing an admirable job, as a few others have. But it is getting very frustrating to see the concept of evolution so poorly understood by those in disagreement. Ifeel tempted to start a thread that outlines the general principles of evolution, but I fear it will be misunderstood. I feel that way because I am under the impression those who argue against evolution have already done their homework, and are still not fully understanding it.

So, I really don't see the point.
 

(Q)

Active Member
Fact of life? Are you still beating your wife? Another fact of life?

Ronald - if I were to beat my wife, I would be acting in a most unreasonable, irrational way. Besides, the ramifications of beating my wife outweigh any benefits that might be derived. My wife is an educated, rational and reasonable human being who abhors violence and confrontation, as do I. So, we conduct our lives accordingly.

If you had a similar situation, would you beat your wife?
 

dan

Well-Known Member
(Q) said:
There are many arguments for and against evolution

Unfortunately, arguments against evolution have been refuted. Please show me one credible argument against evolution that has not been refuted.

the bottom line is that you will continue to believe whatever you want

It's not so much a matter of belief but instead a matter of evidence for or against.

I can read about a theory, pour over the mathematics and conclude the theory can make the predictions it purports. Personally, if I am able, I will try and reproduce the experiment myself in order to confirm my conclusions.

Don't try to say you have a corner on absolute truth, for you do not.

I don't deal in truths - I deal with evidence. Big difference.

Proponents of evolution and atheism often cite the impossibility of knowledge.

You'll need to expand on this one before I can comment. What exactly do you mean?

Science admits it is flawed in more areas than not

Really? Can you provide examples of "flawed" science. And I don't mean crackpot/crank science.

please don't overstep the boundaries of your convictions.

I dare say I have not done that. However, I would like to give you the opportunity to refute any evidence in favor of evolution, as that is what appears to be your point of contention. Or is it?

Happily. I don't have any time today, but tomorrow I will be prepared to rebut you.
 

(Q)

Active Member
Happily. I don't have any time today, but tomorrow I will be prepared to rebut you.

The silence is deafening.
 

(Q)

Active Member
Happily. I don't have any time today, but tomorrow I will be prepared to rebut you.

Hey Dan, what was that comment in another thread about running away with your tail between your legs?

Do you need more time to work on your 'rebuttal?'
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I completely forgot about this thread. OK, here goes.

We'll start off easy. Four considerations lead to the ocnclusion that evolution is omprobable.
1. Life is unique
2. Complex animals appear suddenly
3. Change in the past has been limited
4. Change in the present is limited

1) A scientist named Jacobson reported in American Scientist that "From the probability standpoint, the ordering of the present environment into a single amino acid molecule would be utterly improbably in all the time and space available for the origin of terrestrial life." A Swiss mathematicion named Charles Eugene Guye came up with those odds. One chance in ten to the one hundredth and sixtieth power. A number far to large to be expressed in words. The amount of matter that would have to be shaken together to create the simplest molecule of protein would be millions of times greater than that in the entire universe. For it to occur on earth would take ten to the two hundred and forty-third power years. That's a long time.

2) An old scientist named Charles Walcott was riding his horse one day in the Canadian Rockies when he stumbled upon something interesting. He found fossils of soft-bodied Cambrian organisms. They were so well preserved you could see everything from their eyes to the intricate organs within their bodies. They grew by molting, a complex process scientists are still trying to understand. The interesting thing is that these fossils pre-date any other fossils in existence at that level of complexity. Basically, these animals were modern and sophisticated, but came out of the primordial soup before they were supposed to be able to do any of these things. They are millions of years too early, and don't have any ancestors. The conclusion was reached that a single creative act in which the major forms of life were created best fits what is actually found in the earth.

3) Basic kinds of animals have not changed. The "missing links" between species are actually entire chains that are missing. G. G. Simpson puts it this way, "It is a feature of the known fossil record that most taxa appear abruptly. They are not, as a rule, led up to by a sequence of almost imperceptible changing forerunnerssuch as Darwin believed should be usual in evolution." Science wants you to believe that they have a long chain of slightly different beings all grouped together and positively identified as an evolutionary ladder, but that is simply not true. Science has to strain and guess and assume to get even a partial chain. We've all seen the pictures in our high school textbooks of Neanderthal man clad in his skin loin cloth armed with a club and some tight dreadlocks, but the skeleton from which we derive that drawing (Lucy) has recently been found to have sufferd deformities from an abnormally sever case of authritis. It appears that person would not be much different from you or me.

4) Let's define evolution real quick. Literally, evolution means change. IN that sense, yes, evolution is a fact, because things change. If you want evolution to denote Darwin's theory and all that crap then we have to look a little closer. We can detect adaptation in some species. Some call it microewvolution, but all it is is the adaptation of a species to its environment without changing families, groups or species. This we can observe. Evolution as a change from one species to another has never nor can never be observed. It will forever remain a theory because it cannot possibly be proven. New species are forming every day from a host of different circumstances, but a change from one fundamental kind to another has never been observed, and will never be observed.

I have more, but will have to get back to you later with it.
 

(Q)

Active Member
I am going to forego the fact you plagiarized, a dispicable act especially for one who is so near to their god, and point out the flaws in 'the' arguments presented, as they are quite clearly not yours.

A scientist named Jacobson...A Swiss mathematicion named Charles Eugene Guye came up with those odds.

1. Yes, creationists are continually misunderstanding, misquoting and abusing the ideas of scientists to further their agenda. Sad really. That has nothing to do with the origin of life as it assumes a state of thermal equlibrium. Of course, life cannot exist in a thermal equlibrium as it would be impossible to draw energy.

2. Here we go again - get your facts right, please!

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cambrian/burgess.html

3. Uh, missing links are found all the time and in most cases when found show the exact transitions thought to have orginally been theorized. Of course, they are no longer 'missing' if found.

4. I won't touch this one because quite frankly it shows you do not know what evolution is all about, or should I say, the person whom you plagiarized doesn't know.

And FYI - evolution HAS been observed.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Dan, please cite a referance for Lucy being deformed by arthritis...
I beleve you are mistaking a famous Neandertal skeleton known simply as the 'Old Man' for Lucy... Lucy is not deformed she appears to have been a rather healthy specimin.... Arthritis can not explain the extreme difference between her and modern humans.
Unless... Arthritis can shrink your brain cavity by more than 50%
Can change the proportions of your limbs and the structure of your feet to make you more arborial...
can change the structure of your face to look more apelike, the structure of your teeth to make them more apelike, suddenly give you a skull ridge like a chimp so you can chew tough plant matter and so on.
And if Arthritis was a possible answer to Lucy then why on gods green earth do we not have Lucy look-alikes hobbiling all over the planet today?
simple, Arthritis does not make you look more apelike....

Please do some reserch first.

This is Lucy: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/lucy.html
This is the Old Man: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/chapelle.jpg
This is Taung Child an infant of the same species as Lucy: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/taung.jpg
This is some healthy specimins of Neandertal: http://sapphire.indstate.edu/~ramanank/skulls.html
and this is Turkana boy a healthy specimin of H. erectus: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/15000.html
this is a comparison between the skeleton of a modern Human and H. neandertal:
http://sapphire.indstate.edu/~ramanank/neander-comparison.gif

and as for Burgess fossils, we do have fossils that predate the Burgess shales... fossils of early mulitcellular life have been discovered that show that 'complex' life did not just suddenly and spontaniously apear.

Here are some pre-cambrian complex lifeforms:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3898605.stm

and here is an eaven older fossil of what may be the earliest multicellular organisms:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3776853.stm

Hope this helps you.

wa:do
 
You guys should read the thread about evolution started by inca a long time ago....painted wolf has a remarkably extensive knowledge of the fossil record.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Thanks, you guys are gonna' make me blush.

Paleontology is a bit of a hobby (more like an obsession) of mine which I'm hoping to turn into a career as soon as I can get back into school.

Plus it helps being a fountian of 'useless' knowledge. ;)

wa:do
 

t3gah

Well-Known Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
Evolution is a natural explaination for how humans (and indeed all life forms) came into being. A lot of theists strongly oppose the idea of evolution. Why? Evolution does not prove God did not make humans any more than meteorology proves God does not cause the wind to blow.

For the sake of argument, let's assume God exists, and He created human beings. In fact, let's assume that God created everything. Now, we already know how human babies are born, we know how animals survive, etc. etc. But theists do not have a problem with any of these natural explainations...that is because most theists have resolved that although the natural explaination for, say, how babies are born (sperm and egg come together, embryo development, XY chromosomes, and so forth) is correct, God still makes babies, because God sets these natural processes in motion in the first place.

So what is the big deal with evolution? I mean, it's all well and good to believe that God makes babies, but isn't it a good thing that scientists found out exactly HOW God does this, via natural processes? If you believe God created our species, that's super--but wouldn't we like to know HOW, exactly, God acheived this? Perhaps God did create humans, and evolution was how He did it.

It saddens me to see so many theists reject evolution...there was a time when religious men like Gregor Mendel studied the natural world because studying the natural world gave them a better understanding of God.
An intelligence smart enough to create the Universe and all that's in it including creating all the laws for all creation most likely would not give humans the capacity to be like him because then he would lose his role as being God.

And since mankind can't be in every millimeter on earth at the same time, we humans will never know if God is the force behind creating new species or it's evolution. Many things look the same, etc. But I fail to see the corelation between translucent creatures that live in boiling hot water near volcano vents under the ocean have to do with humans. Or what living organisms so small we need microscopes to see them have to do with birds. Or what that spec of protoplasm has to do with that porpoise.

The study that showed that humans aren't using more than around 1 to 5 percent of the total brain capacity should tell everyone that this can't be evolution for humans. What is the rest of our brain for? Scientists and medical personnel are still spectulating on the possiblities.

Then there are the Darwin theories which the world scientific community has finally brought into the light that Darwin made claims he couldn't back up because fossils cannot and have not been found to draw a line between each of the levels Darwin said there are. That is not to say they don't exist though because this is a big planet and they haven't excavated it all yet.

Now one has to decide what is the correct course of action. Go with evolution by itself, go with evolution along with creation or go with creation only. Apples, oranges and grapes I say. Everyone is going to choose something since no one has all of the answers, yet.

In my opinion I believe the creation/evolution theory because many creatures seem to have adapted to new environments. Which is how I explain the Big Bang. Yes it went boom but God created everything involved. He may have created in this very fashion for it to explode. Saves alot of time making each individual piece of the Universe...
 
t3gah said:
The study that showed that humans aren't using more than around 1 to 5 percent of the total brain capacity should tell everyone that this can't be evolution for humans. What is the rest of our brain for? Scientists and medical personnel are still spectulating on the possiblities.
I think you may be mistaken that such a study exists.
 
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