Evil?

[w00t]

If you believe in the Biblical god he appears to be a source of great evil. No sane deity would flood a whole planet killing animals as well as humans just because one or two people didn't see it his way!

 

[lunamoth]

Yes, but what does that have to do with salvation?

You asked salvation from what. The answer, from a Christian perspective, is salvation from evil, sin, death. Healing of relationships between us and God and us and each other, and healing of our own broken selves. Personally speaking, accepting this salvation means accepting that I can make choices and the choices I make matter a great deal, it means the promise and hope that somehow and tangibly "all will be well," and that there will be an end to suffering, there will be healing in this world.

The starting question is whether you feel everything in the world is OK and as it should be, or is there something wrong. If you think everything is OK, then Christianity has no answers for you.

If God didn't create evil or limits himself in creation, how can you be sure God can overcome evil?

Again, the Christian answer is that God already has, and not without great cost to Himself.

 

[Aasimar]

Again, the Christian answer is that God already has, and not without great cost to Himself.

So, what did God lose?

 

[lunamoth]

So, what did God lose?

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (John 3)


7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. (1 John 4)

 

[Ringer]

Is there evil in the world?

What is it?

Where is it?

IMO, evil is the natural outworkings of the flesh when our lives are not submitted to the influence of the holy spirit.

To find out where evil is you have to look no further than the human heart. Everybody has the potential to be the vessel that harbors evil. It's not just the Jeffrey Dahmers or the Charles Mansons of the world. I think we run into issues with evil because philosophically we are looking at the world's problems as the causes of evil. That's not really the case if you look at Jesus' teachings. Don't look "out there" for evil but instead look "in here".

The gospel tells us that when we accept the gift of salvation and enter into a relationship with God, not just our minds but our hearts are renewed and regenerated. We are a new creature for the old things have passed away. We now have the ability to resist the tendancies to do evil because greater is he that is in us than that which is in the world.

Each of our hearts have the ability and capacity for evil. Find out how to guard your heart from evil and you have your solution. For those with a true relationship with Jesus, we have the answer.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Evil gives pain to mind and body, so therefore is bad.

Evil everywhere, it creates a nescessary balance.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Evil is when the red guy with horns, a tail and a pitchfork who, from the core of the earth, sends wi-fi signals to our brain and says, go do bad stuff.

 

[Buttercup]

You asked salvation from what. The answer, from a Christian perspective, is salvation from evil, sin, death. Healing of relationships between us and God and us and each other, and healing of our own broken selves. Personally speaking, accepting this salvation means accepting that I can make choices and the choices I make matter a great deal, it means the promise and hope that somehow and tangibly "all will be well," and that there will be an end to suffering, there will be healing in this world.

After so many years of listening to sermons about Satan, hell, the evilness of man, and how following Jesus is the only way to heaven and forgiveness of sin, you probably understand how much of your beliefs are foreign to me as an ex-Christian. Of course as I've said before, I like your beliefs much better than what I grew used to although I still don't buy the story line. :angel2:

The starting question is whether you feel everything in the world is OK and as it should be, or is there something wrong. If you think everything is OK, then Christianity has no answers for you.

Again, the Christian answer is that God already has, and not without great cost to Himself.

Do you believe God made man?

 

[lunamoth]

After so many years of listening to sermons about Satan, hell, the evilness of man, and how following Jesus is the only way to heaven and forgiveness of sin, you probably understand how much of your beliefs are foreign to me as an ex-Christian. Of course as I've said before, I like your beliefs much better than what I grew used to although I still don't buy the story line. :angel2:

I know you don't buy it lovely Roxanne. But you asked, so I answered.

Do you believe God made man?

Yes.

 

[lunamoth]

Evil gives pain to mind and body, so therefore is bad.

Evil everywhere, it creates a nescessary balance.

If evil is necessary, instead of just a possible option, is there any real difference between evil and good? If it's necessary, then is evil 'good?'

 

[Don Penguinoini]

If evil is necessary, instead of just a possible option, is there any real difference between evil and good? If it's necessary, then is evil 'good?'

Its not good, if there was only good, then there would be no good people... Everyone would average and there would be no insparation to do anything useful and good to people in the world.

 

[Storm]

Its not good, if there was only good, then there would be no good people... Everyone would average and there would be no insparation to do anything useful and good to people in the world.

So if the existence of evil allows people to be good, doesn't that make evil ultimately beneficial?

 

[Buttercup]

Yes.

If God made man, God made man capable of evil, right?

If God made man, you don't see him as powerful enough to know that man would use that evil side?

 

[lunamoth]

If God made man, God made man capable of evil, right?

If God made man, you don't see him as powerful enough to know that man would use that evil side?

Rhonda, this is a restatement of the problem of theodicy: if God is good why is there evil in the world. I've already said I don't have an answer to that. He could have either made it impossible to rebel from Him and choose evil, limiting our choice and freedom, or He could have just not attempted the project at all. Or, He felt it was a risk and did not actually know what humans would choose, He limited himself. I find some comparison in the question of why do we choose to have children when we know there is evil in the world and they could end up suffering.

It may be easier to just get rid of God, no God, no conundrum about why there is evil in the world. But you still have evil and the question of what to do about it. Or, some people say that not only is there no God, there is no evil, only the choices we each freely make for ourself in response to this one precious life. Or maybe there is God, but God is not Creator but a product of the universe, an emergent property. You get to choose how you see it.

Or God is the Ground of Being, a God Beyond God, the God you find when you give up (some) other notions of God. I kind of like that but I'm not sure how to fit it in with a Creator God. I'm also not sure how the Ground of Being fits in with the problem of evil, but it might be that the answer in that case is as Tillich said, the response to the ultimate evil, death, is having the courage to Be.

There's a lot I don't know. Less all the time it seems.

 

[autonomous1one1]

....The starting question is whether you feel everything in the world is OK and as it should be, or is there something wrong. If you think everything is OK, then Christianity has no answers for you. ...

Greetings Luna. It is assumed that you were thinking of qualifiers with the above statement since you are the one that helped me understand the extent of 'Love' as an answer from Christianity regardless of one's view. My own view on evil is much akin to that suggested by MoonWater and my view would slant towards 'everything is as it should be.' Yet, Christianity offers key answers for me. Let me offer my opinions to help explain this.

From the view of God as Being-itself, the Ground of Being, the Power of Being, the Participant through existence and transcending it, being and the development of being obviously are important. Look at how far within time humankind has developed. In my view the development of being aims for God’s reunion which can happen through human consciousness.

Evil is a human-created symbol applied from a human judgment and specific finite perspective about a level/dimension/or state of development. It is arbitrarily defined from a scale where bad is less development and good is more development in my view. My scale for the individual human perspective goes from 'totally separated from God and all others with a completely selfish orientation,' to, 'realization of union with God and all with an Agape orientation' at the other extreme. Humans may view from one extreme that all is good but from the other almost all is sinful and evil. Also, from my view the experience that the symbol evil is used to point towards is essential for the development of humankind and can be viewed from different perspectives. From one high perspective - the transcendent unity of the dissected moments of existential time for all temporality – my conjecture is that the resultant being (one that has experienced, understood, and overcome) is the meaningful. [Incidentally, that 'unity bit' is one of Tillich’s expressions for eternity as the eternal aspect of God. ]

Regards,
a..1

[EDIT: Made a few modifications to clarify a bit. The grin is because of the complexity.]

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Robert, Thank you for your post!

Greetings Luna. It is assumed that you were thinking of qualifiers with the above statement since you are the one that helped me understand the extent of 'Love' as an answer from Christianity regardless of one's view.

I would put all kinds of qualifiers on that statement. And although I've not said it explicitly in this thread, I think that Love is the answer to the question about evil too.

My own view on evil is much akin to that suggested by MoonWater and my view would slant towards 'everything is as it should be.' Yet, Christianity offers key answers for me. Let me offer my opinions to help explain this.

From the view of God as Being-itself, the Ground of Being, the Power of Being, the Participant through existence and transcending it, being and the development of being obviously are important. Look at how far within time humankind has developed. In my view the development of being aims for God’s reunion which can happen through human consciousness.

I think I'm with you so far.

Evil is a human-created symbol applied from a human judgment and specific finite perspective about a level/dimension/or state of development – arbitrarily, bad is less development and good is more development in my view. My scale for humans goes from totally separated from God and all others with a completely selfish orientation, to, realization of union with God and all with an Agape orientation at the other extreme. Humans may view from one extreme that all is good but from the other almost all is sinful and evil. Also, from my view the experience that the symbol evil is used to point towards is essential for the development of humankind and can be viewed from different perspectives. From one high perspective - the unity of dissected moments of existential time for all temporality – my conjecture is that the resultant being (one that has experienced, understood, and overcome) is the meaningful. [Incidentally, if you thought ‘oh my God!’ when reading this high perspective bit, you are right. That unity bit is one of Tillich’s expressions for eternity as the eternal aspect of God.]

Well, I'm not sure I'm fully understanding this, but it seems that your answer to Rhonda's question "salvation from what?" is the same as mine: salvation from separation from God.

Regards,

a..1

Always a pleasure. :namaste:

 

[autonomous1one1]

....Well, I'm not sure I'm fully understanding this, but it seems that your answer to Rhonda's question "salvation from what?" is the same as mine: salvation from separation from God.
Always a pleasure. :namaste:

Always my pleasure, really. Yes, the word 'salvation' has meaning for me and 'from separation from God' would be one expression. Usually, my words are something like salvation from the conditions of finitude.

Incidentally, it should be mentioned that my views on evil are not those of Tillich. He indicated his role as re-expression of the Christian message in terms for the modern human. Thus, he has modern meanings for evil, sin, etc. but in keeping with Christian tradition. He overcomes the God-evil problem with a free will for humans argument if my recollection is correct.

Best Wishes,
..1one1

 

[Fluffy]

I believe that evil is a concept that is used for many destructive purposes.
It is a delusion that prevents us from having to execute our morality in a fair and just but ultimately difficult and exhausting way.
It is a shield that protects us by allowing us to ignore the similarities between ourselves and the unpleasant.
It is a barrier that separates us from others so that we might cut them loose rather than confront the emotionally arduous task of loving them.

 

[Buttercup]

Rhonda, this is a restatement of the problem of theodicy: if God is good why is there evil in the world. I've already said I don't have an answer to that. He could have either made it impossible to rebel from Him and choose evil, limiting our choice and freedom, or He could have just not attempted the project at all. Or, He felt it was a risk and did not actually know what humans would choose, He limited himself. I find some comparison in the question of why do we choose to have children when we know there is evil in the world and they could end up suffering.

It's nearly impossible for me to believe if God made man he had no idea of the evil that would follow. It doesn't make sense no matter how I excuse it, qualify it, overlook or ignore it. Either God made man or he didn't.

If God made the universe along with everything in it including man, I don't see how you can't agree he knew man would commit evil acts. If God is omniscient and knows of a heaven to come...meaning he knows the future of the world and all its human inhabitants......he would know the evil, horrible acts man would enact on his fellow man. I cannot live with that notion. I cannot worship nor believe in a God who would create this.

It may be easier to just get rid of God, no God, no conundrum about why there is evil in the world. But you still have evil and the question of what to do about it.

No doubt about it, evil is here. Why? I don't know. All I can do about it is act in love whenever I can because it's best.

 

[lunamoth]

It's nearly impossible for me to believe if God made man he had no idea of the evil that would follow. It doesn't make sense no matter how I excuse it, qualify it, overlook or ignore it. Either God made man or he didn't.

If God made the universe along with everything in it including man, I don't see how you can't agree he knew man would commit evil acts. If God is omniscient and knows of a heaven to come...meaning he knows the future of the world and all its human inhabitants......he would know the evil, horrible acts man would enact on his fellow man. I cannot live with that notion. I cannot worship nor believe in a God who would create this.

I hear you Rhonda; all I can say is that I don't see it that way. I think the omniscient/omnipotent puzzle is unsolvable, just like the one about God making a rock too heavy for himself to lift.

No doubt about it, evil is here. Why? I don't know. All I can do about it is act in love whenever I can because it's best.

I agree there is evil, and it runs right throught the hearts of each of us. Why? I don't know either. And my response...act in love whenever I can because I agree it is best.