Evidence for God's existence

[Kenny]

If it is only a matter of interpretation, then it isn't a fact. it is an opinion.

THAT is the question.

 

[SalixIncendium]

No, I didn't construct a scenario... I answered a question.

You constructed the scenario.

This portion of your post is pointless and irrelevant to the discussion. Rather than pursuing this argument, I'll let whoever is reading look back a the first page of this thread and come to their own conclusion.

Ok... On what foundatonal basis was the prayer made.

Not sure what you're looking for here in "foundational basis," but I'll take a shot.

Renee was a Christian who went to church and prayed as much as any other Christian would. When she fell ill and went 9 months in and out of various hospitals and clinics trying to find out what was wrong with her, she prayed for a diagnosis. Once the she was diagnosed with an aggressive rare sarcoma that had a prognosis of 35% chance of survival, she prayed that her cancer would go into remission, not only for herself but for others that she would leave behind that were close to her. During the nearly two years that she fought the illness, she prayed.

Is that the information you needed to provide me an answer or did I miss something?

 

[Kenny]

The point is that *reality* doesn't depend on interpretation. Only opinions do. It isn't a matter of interpretation whether there is an elephant in my room. It isn't a matter of interpretation how far away stars are. It *is* a matter of interpretation whether tomatoes taste good.

There is no 'possession by demons', only types of mental illness.

The question is, "is there an elephant in the room". Someone is possessed by demons and you say "there is no elephant".

 

[Kenny]

Not sure what you're looking for here in "foundational basis," but I'll take a shot.

Renee was a Christian who went to church and prayed as much as any other Christian would. When she fell ill and went 9 months in and out of various hospitals and clinics trying to find out what was wrong with her, she prayed for a diagnosis. Once the she was diagnosed with an aggressive rare sarcoma that had a prognosis of 35% chance of survival, she prayed that her cancer would go into remission, not only for herself but for others that she would leave behind that were close to her. During the nearly two years that she fought the illness, she prayed.

Is that the information you needed to provide me an answer or did I miss something?

That's a good start and that sure is a hard road to hoe and, for me, this is such a tender subject that I'm a little hesitant to address on a forum where people can be harsh.

Would you mind doing through personal messages? or not. Either way... let me know

 

[SalixIncendium]

That's a good start and that sure is a hard road to hoe and, for me, this is such a tender subject that I'm a little hesitant to address on a forum where people can be harsh.

Would you mind doing through personal messages? or not.

You can feel free to use the PM function if you prefer, but I think there are those that would benefit from reading what you and I both have to offer on the subject.

While you might perceive this as a tender subject, know that Renee was a tough skinned critical thinker (she took after her dad), and she would have appreciated a candid discussion with someone that could offer some insight into why her God had forsaken her. I think her preference would be to have this discussion in public view so others might learn from her experience.

ETA: This is @PopeADope's thread, and I don't want to derail it if he wishes it to take another direction. I'll leave the decision to him if he would like us to continue this discussion in another thread or continue here.

 

[Kenny]

OK -- let's see how we can say it, starting with these two points.

Renee was a Christian who went to church and prayed as much as any other Christian would. When she fell ill and went 9 months in and out of various hospitals and clinics trying to find out what was wrong with her, she prayed for a diagnosis. Once the she was diagnosed with an aggressive rare sarcoma that had a prognosis of 35% chance of survival, she prayed that her cancer would go into remission, not only for herself but for others that she would leave behind that were close to her. During the nearly two years that she fought the illness, she prayed.

Is that the information you needed to provide me an answer or did I miss something?

Since I wasn't there, let me share what we did and share how it lines up with what you experienced.

she prayed for a diagnosis

This is a great thing... one can't pray effectively if we don't know what we are praying for.

"she prayed that her cancer would go into remission

here it would appear we did something different.

Mark 11:14Then Jesus said to the tree, “May no one ever eat your fruit again!” And the disciples heard him say it.
...20 The next morning as they passed by the fig tree he had cursed, the disciples noticed it had withered from the roots up. 21 Peter remembered what Jesus had said to the tree on the previous day and exclaimed, “Look, Rabbi! The fig tree you cursed has withered and died!”

Luke 7:7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.

What we did was curse the cancer and commanded it to die and sent healing words into their bodies.

not only for herself but for others that she would leave behind that were close to her

This seems out of place.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
1 John 5:14 Andthis is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thingaccording to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hearus, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

We never prayed for "those who they would leave behind". Our foundational position was that they were going to live and not die and we were praying believing that we had received it already and believed that we would have them.

In a sense one is praying for one thing but expecting something else.

There are probably a few other things that were different.

There is a great read: https://wordforlifepublishing.com/dodie-osteen-testimony/?v=7516fd43adaa. Dodie Osteen was less that 100lbs due the cancer and its treatments and the doctors said they could do no more with no much time left. Their statement was "all we can do now is just keep her comfortable" (or something like that). She speaks of the process where God did what doctors couldn't.

 

[SalixIncendium]

OK -- let's see how we can say it, starting with these two points.



Since I wasn't there, let me share what we did and share how it lines up with what you experienced.


This is a great thing... one can't pray effectively if we don't know what we are praying for.


here it would appear we did something different.

Mark 11:14Then Jesus said to the tree, “May no one ever eat your fruit again!” And the disciples heard him say it.
...20 The next morning as they passed by the fig tree he had cursed, the disciples noticed it had withered from the roots up. 21 Peter remembered what Jesus had said to the tree on the previous day and exclaimed, “Look, Rabbi! The fig tree you cursed has withered and died!”

Luke 7:7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.

What we did was curse the cancer and commanded it to die and sent healing words into their bodies.

So she made the mistake of not cursing it and commanding it to die?

Just so I'm clear on your position here, you're telling me that in order for prayer for cancer to go away to be answered, you have to curse it first and command it to die? If you don't, and pray for the cancer to go into remission (which is actually what happens; there is no instant "cure"), that prayer simply gets ignored?

This seems out of place.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
1 John 5:14 Andthis is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thingaccording to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hearus, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

We never prayed for "those who they would leave behind". Our foundational position was that they were going to live and not die and we were praying believing that we had received it already and believed that we would have them.

In a sense one is praying for one thing but expecting something else.

Perhaps I misrepresented the intent of the prayer for others or just wasn't specific enough. There was never, until the day she decided she didn't want to fight anymore, any sort of acceptance that she might die. The intent of all actions was directed toward living. When I said, she prayed for others, she prayed regarding the burden of dealing with her disease, not how they might deal with her death, at least not until death was immanent. There was no expectation of "something else."

There are probably a few other things that were different.

There is a great read: https://wordforlifepublishing.com/dodie-osteen-testimony/?v=7516fd43adaa. Dodie Osteen was less that 100lbs due the cancer and its treatments and the doctors said they could do no more with no much time left. Their statement was "all we can do now is just keep her comfortable" (or something like that). She speaks of the process where God did what doctors couldn't.

It seems to me that your position here on why she died and the others lived is that she prayed wrong and the others did it right. Is that where we're headed with this?

 

[Kenny]

So she made the mistake of not cursing it and commanding it to die?

Let's start here so as not to create to big of a thread. I believe you are asking what did we do different that caused results in some cases and not in another. Am I understanding correctly?

Are you saying that if we pray however we want to pray and do it differently that what Jesus said and did, creating a "new and different way"... it's ok?

Or, in a practical application, if the doctor says "take penecilln for 12 days -- three times a day" and we take it for 10, twice daily, do we wonder why something didn't work?

On another front... if God said "YOU cast out demons" and instead all we do is ASK God to cast them out... do we wonder why asking God isn't working when He gave US the responsibility to cast them out?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The point is that *reality* doesn't depend on interpretation. Only opinions do. It isn't a matter of interpretation whether there is an elephant in my room. It isn't a matter of interpretation how far away stars are. It *is* a matter of interpretation whether tomatoes taste good.

There is no 'possession by demons', only types of mental illness.

Evidence is always a matter of interpretation. Evidence is fact that supports a conclusion; which conclusion we choose - and therefore the context for the evidence - is up to us.

If someone makes a valid argument for God that's based on, say, 10 factual premises, then if they provide justification that 3 of those premises are factually true, then that justification is evidence for God. However, they haven't demonstrated that God exists until all of the premises have been justified.

Paradoxically, if those same 3 premises can be used in an argument against the existence of God, then the same facts could be both evidence for God and evidence against God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

On another front... if God said "YOU cast out demons" and instead all we do is ASK God to cast them out... do we wonder why asking God isn't working when He gave US the responsibility to cast them out?

How can you tell that God isn't working? In every case where I've seen someone ask God to cast demons out of a person, the person has had no detectable demons at all afterward.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Let's start here so as not to create to big of a thread. I believe you are asking what did we do different that caused results in some cases and not in another. Am I understanding correctly?

Yes.

Are you saying that if we pray however we want to pray and do it differently that what Jesus said and did, creating a "new and different way"... it's ok?

Nope. Not saying that at all.

On another front... if God said "YOU cast out demons" and instead all we do is ASK God to cast them out... do we wonder why asking God isn't working when He gave US the responsibility to cast them out?

Please don't tell me that God is so petty that he condemned Renee to die because of semantics. Are we boiling this down to word choice in prayer? What do you think is more important in prayer? Word choice or intent? Does an omnipotent God not have the ability to interpret intent?

 

[Kenny]

Nope. Not saying that at all.

But you are suggesting that by the response.

Please don't tell me that God is so petty that he condemned Renee to die because of semantics.

Hardly.

1) God didn't "condemn her". He didn't even put the sickness on her.

That woud be like saying that since I only took 10 days of penecilin twice a day instead of 12 days of penicillin 3 times a day, the doctor condemned me.

2) We aren't talking about semantics. We are talking about different types of prayers and when you pray what kind of prayer. Taking aspirin when you need penecillin -- both have benefits but each one is created for a different purpose.

Are we boiling this down to word choice in prayer? What do you think is more important in prayer? Word choice or intent? Does an omnipotent God not have the ability to interpret intent?

You are mixing viewpoints vs Kingdom spiritual principles that are given to us to work by.

51 And Jesus answered and said unto him,What wilt thou that I should do unto thee*? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

Apparently Jesus gave him a choice when to the naked eye, it would be obvious. Maybe word choices are important? Matt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

I think a bigger question here is "Am I really interested in praying better to get better results or am I just frustrated that my friend (or family) passed away and I think it is God's fault".

In Heaven she is healed and we will see Renee again. That's my ultimate focus.

 

[SalixIncendium]

But you are suggesting that by the response.

Not sure how you're drawing this conclusion. I never offered that we "pray however we want." But since you took that horse out of the barn, let's ride it.

Going back to my statement about intent, does the specific wording used in prayer make a difference if the intent is the same? Clearly, all three ladies had the same intent behind the prayer. They wanted to live.

Hardly.

1) God didn't "condemn her". He didn't even put the sickness on her.

That woud be like saying that since I only took 10 days of penecilin twice a day instead of 12 days of penicillin 3 times a day, the doctor condemned me.

2) We aren't talking about semantics. We are talking about different types of prayers and when you pray what kind of prayer. Taking aspirin when you need penecillin -- both have benefits but each one is created for a different purpose.

This reminds me, you didn't answer my question. Is God that hung up on words that he ignores intent. Or can He not realize intent in His omnipotence?

You are mixing viewpoints vs Kingdom spiritual principles that are given to us to work by.

51 And Jesus answered and said unto him,What wilt thou that I should do unto thee*? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

Apparently Jesus gave him a choice when to the naked eye, it would be obvious. Maybe word choices are important? Matt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

So, to summarize, you indeed are concluding that God let's people die because they choose the wrong words in prayer despite the intent of said prayer.

I think a bigger question here is "Am I really interested in praying better to get better results or am I just frustrated that my friend (or family) passed away and I think it is God's fault".

I'm not interested in praying at all. I don't do that.

I'm I frustrated? Sure. I'm sure any rationally minded person would be having lost her/his child. Do I blame God? Not at all. In my views, God has no control over such things.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Spontaneous faith manifesting as thought.

 

[Kenny]

Not sure how you're drawing this conclusion. I never offered that we "pray however we want." But since you took that horse out of the barn, let's ride it.
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Ok.. I don't want to argue a "yes you did / no you didn't".

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Going back to my statement about intent, does the specific wording used in prayer make a difference if the intent is the same? Clearly, all three ladies had the same intent behind the prayer. They wanted to live.

2) We aren't talking about semantics. We are talking about different types of prayers and when you pray what kind of prayer. Taking aspirin when you need penecillin -- both have benefits but each one is created for a different purpose.

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Of course intent only isn't enough. A doctor in Tampa amputated the wrong leg... but his intent was right.
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Matt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

It doesn't say "intent" - it says words. II can pull up a number of times "intent" vs "words used" made all the difference in the world for people who were then sued, not for intent but for word.


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This reminds me, you didn't answer my question. Is God that hung up on words that he ignores intent. Or can He not realize intent in His omnipotence?
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But I did answer it:

You are mixing viewpoints vs Kingdom spiritual principles that are given to us to work by.

51 And Jesus answered and said unto him,What wilt thou that I should do unto thee*? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

Apparently Jesus gave him a choice when to the naked eye, it would be obvious. Maybe word choices are important? Matt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

.

So, to summarize, you indeed are concluding that God let's people die because they choose the wrong words in prayer despite the intent of said prayer.
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No... not quite. I am concluding that if the doctor says "take penicillin for 12 days" and out of your good intent you took 12 days of aspirin, it isn't going to work and it wasn't the doctors fault.

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I'm not interested in praying at all. I don't do that.
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Maybe that's why some people get more answers than others.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Of course intent only isn't enough. A doctor in Tampa amputated the wrong leg... but his intent was right.

It doesn't say "intent" - it says words. II can pull up a number of times "intent" vs "words used" made all the difference in the world for people who were then sued, not for intent but for word.

Too bad doctors aren't omnipotent.

Or...wait! Are you saying God has all of the omnipotence of a doctor in Tampa?

No... not quite. I am concluding that if the doctor says "take penicillin for 12 days" and out of your good intent you took 12 days of aspirin, it isn't going to work and it wasn't the doctors fault.

Compare apples to oranges much? Your analogy is akin to saying she prayed to George W Bush instead of God.

Maybe that's why some people get more answers than others.

I don't pray. She did. Where were her answers?

But since you didn't really provide me any, it's clear that despite your prayers, you don't have them either.

 

[Kenny]

But since you didn't really provide me any, it's clear that despite your prayers, you don't have them either.

You intepret how you want to

 

[SalixIncendium]

You intepret how you want to

I'd love to, if I had something of substance to interpret.

 

[Kenny]

I'd love to, if I had something of substance to interpret.

Riiight!

 

[Looncall]

The way I see it, there is plenty of evidence for the existence of gods as conceptions, and some of those are beautiful indeed.

With the proper cautions and environments, those can be superb practice tools as well.

Any speculations about whether they "truly exist" is IMO a serious mistake of scope, though. Wanting to find "evidence for the existence of God" implies a considerable degree of confusion about what a deity is.

Ha-Ha! Nifty dodge! /disgust