Even if hell is not eternal in nature.

[A Vestigial Mote]

Have you seen me make arguements for a god? Simply my stating of some people think life on earth is hell is far far from arguing for or believing in a god.

Did you even read my last paragraph? Perhaps you should. I have already addressed your concerns.

 

[1213]

...I'd be prepared to go to great lengths to save my daughter from a burning building even though she would most probably asphyxiate before the flame reached her. Can you imagine how far a person would go to safe their child from burning for 50 or 100 or a thousand or a million years?
...
They presumably don't want their child to burn for an extended period of time so they cover women in Burqas and block out the windows and forbid women from being public figures - that is what I suspect, that it is all to save their children and themselves from the fear of burning...

It would be nice to see, is that what they think and to what have they based their belief. I don’t think humans can really do anything to save person from hell.

 

[osgart]

I don't see that any true justice is being served in society and nature. There is the life building way of virtues, and the life destroying way of vices. A reasonable person would opt for virtues and civil liberty under laws of fairness to all. A person of vices only has their arrogance, hatred/cruelty to gain power and control for self serving interests only.

What heaven, and hell is there to stop anyone from doing anything? All there is is the two ways of virtues and vices. People of vices use fear and manipulation and they have their codes of operation to create power, and control to do their bidding.

The only thing stopping the power of vices is the power of virtues. There's no hell that's going to cause fear to get the bad to be good. Humans do everything here without a divine hand to ensure justice.

Some religious want to enforce their God. Some nations want to enforce their power and control otherwise.

There is a free world because it's how people like it to be. And there are real freedoms. A lot of people want to destroy those freedoms. And hell doesn't mean anything to it.

Who can point to a true justice where everyone gets what they truly deserve in this world let alone the promises of a next world? Very superficial to believe such realities exist.

The only thing humans have is the moral play between the forces of how people desire things to be. And freedom is a very powerful thing indeed.

 

[danieldemol]

Obviously if very grave sins or vices are performed, hellish suffering can last for a very, very long time. It is the same as when we live on earth.

There are smaller prison terms for stealing a mobile or a watch from a shop and longer prison terms for bigger offences like murder, assault, rape, bank robbery and so on.



There is accountability in the Dharmic hell. You reap what you sow. For evil karma's you have to suffer accordingly, even if it is for a long time. A long time of hellish suffering obviously means that one has done a lot of bad karmas. It is fair and square.

The Abrahamic hell however is disproportionate. Performance of some vices means you are in hell forever. The very notion in itself can make your living life hell with fear and anxiety.

Do you think suffering reforms a person as opposed to doing something like changing their nature?

Would you set someone on fire even for a little while for something like stealing a watch?

I think we don't burn criminals because it does little to reform them. Instead we seek to treat underlying causes, for example did they steal because they were hungry and have no means, then provide social security. Did they steal because of mental illness, then treat the illness. Unfortunately there is not much we can do to treat sociopaths at this time but I'm sure God would know how to treat them.

In my opinion.

 

[DNB]

Sure they do, but I doubt their belief is justified.

If I had a child that I loved and had the power to reform it instead of just burning it, then I would.

People claim that God loves us, yet let's us burn rather than reform us.

It doesn't add up.

In my opinion.

But He has given ample opportunity to repent, and made redemption available through grace. Thus, what more could someone ask for as far as being given a free ticket goes? Or, rather, how much defiance and ingratitude does it take to expose the incorrigible nature of the one to whom He gave life to?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It seems as though even if hell is not eternal in nature it still promotes an irrational fear in people and there are plenty of irrational fears that have lead to fanaticism.

Would it not make sense to promote scepticism about irrational fears people have in an effort to undermine them and thus minimise fanaticism?

To clarify im not talking about some sort of spiritual suffering which a person may experience even within there lifetime, I have in mind a literal hellfire which a person will burn or be physically tormented in for ages.

Thoughts?

I've read anthropological sites taht say that those cultures which believe there is a god watching them and consequences for actions, the people actually behave better towards one another.

 

[ajay0]

Do you think suffering reforms a person as opposed to doing something like changing their nature?

Obiviously changing nature through better education and culture is the better option.

Those unable to do so goes through suffering and might change for the better as pain or suffering brings attention to an unhealthy state in the body or mind.

However intense suffering of a prolonged kind can incite psychological disorders.

Would you set someone on fire even for a little while for something like stealing a watch?

If I suffer from some neurosis or psychosis in the future, I might do that. Not sure, though, but perhaps.

I think we don't burn criminals because it does little to reform them. Instead we seek to treat underlying causes, for example did they steal because they were hungry and have no means, then provide social security. Did they steal because of mental illness, then treat the illness. Unfortunately there is not much we can do to treat sociopaths at this time but I'm sure God would know how to treat them.

In my opinion.

That is a healthy perspective.

 

[danieldemol]

But He has given ample opportunity to repent, and made redemption available through grace. Thus, what more could someone ask for as far as being given a free ticket goes? Or, rather, how much defiance and ingratitude does it take to expose the incorrigible nature of the one to whom you gave life to?

Why do you think not being grateful to things they don't believe exist is a sign of a person's incorrigibility? Do you feel like an incorrigible person for not being grateful to Zues or other Gods/things you don't believe exist?

Do you really think God is so needy as to be deprived by lack of gratitude? I can't see why that would move anything worthy of being called a God at all. I see God as being wholly indifferent to your gratitude.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

I've read anthropological sites taht say that those cultures which believe there is a god watching them and consequences for actions, the people actually behave better towards one another.

I'd like to see the specifics. I could just imagine them studying a Hindu society somewhere and then drawing their conclusions and the Taliban being like, "We are a people who believe in consequences for our actions from God - this applies to us", but somehow I doubt that such extreme societies is what the authors of the studies had in mind.

In my opinion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'd like to see the specifics. I could just imagine them studying a Hindu society somewhere and then drawing their conclusions and the Taliban being like, "We are a people who believe in consequences for our actions from God - this applies to us", but somehow I doubt that such extreme societies is what the authors of the studies had in mind.

In my opinion.

To foster complex societies, tell people a god is watching
To foster complex societies, tell people a god is watching
By Lizzie WadeMar. 4, 2015 , 3:30 PM

People are nicer to each other when they think someone is watching, many psychology studies have shown—especially if they believe that someone has the power to punish them for transgressions even after they’re dead. That’s why some scientists think that belief in the high gods of moralizing religions, such as Islam and Christianity, helped people cooperate with each other and encouraged societies to grow.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
God Is Watching You: Priming God Concepts Increases Prosocial Behavior in an Anonymous Economic Game

That's just two sites. There are plenty more that discuss this.

 

[DNB]

Why do you think not being grateful to things they don't believe exist is a sign of a person's incorrigibility? Do you feel like an incorrigible person for not being grateful to Zues or other Gods/things you don't believe exist?

Do you really think God is so needy as to be deprived by lack of gratitude? I can't see why that would move anything worthy of being called a God at all. I see God as being wholly indifferent to your gratitude.

In my opinion.

No one is on this planet by their own volition, and yet each one feels an entitlement to, one, take what they want, and two, treat others however they want. One has to start to realize why morality is even an issue, and why that it is only humans that protest injustices.
...we are here for a reason, and apparently, everyone's life matters. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us all to be fair, compassionate, supportive and harmless amongst each other. None of these sentiments would bear any significance if there were no God - an architect of justice, and the source of our recognition of righteousness.

Those with the mental capacity to understand the concept of God, are without excuse, and their fate, which they chose themselves, is self-inflicted and justified.

 

[danieldemol]

To foster complex societies, tell people a god is watching
To foster complex societies, tell people a god is watching
By Lizzie WadeMar. 4, 2015 , 3:30 PM

People are nicer to each other when they think someone is watching, many psychology studies have shown—especially if they believe that someone has the power to punish them for transgressions even after they’re dead. That’s why some scientists think that belief in the high gods of moralizing religions, such as Islam and Christianity, helped people cooperate with each other and encouraged societies to grow.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
God Is Watching You: Priming God Concepts Increases Prosocial Behavior in an Anonymous Economic Game

That's just two sites. There are plenty more that discuss this.

Thanks,
It is interesting that it is "some scientists" who believe that and not a consensus.

I read the first article in its entirety, the second one was behind a paywall.

In the first article it basically said that some generalized belief in a supernatural form of consequence may have assisted the formation of "complex societies". Supposing this hypothesis to be true, one can see that everything from the Taliban to communist China constitutes a complex society, so I think that arguing for the utility of supernatural consequence based belief is not necessarily the same as arguing for the utility of the harshest forms of consequence based societies.

For example India is probably a healthier functioning society than what Afghanistan has been under the Taliban. Yet both Hindus and Deobandi Muslims believe in supernatural consequence for actions deemed bad.

So I think there is still an argument to be made that punishments should be fitting of the crime in a useful belief system.

That is rather than sticking everyone in the torment of fire for centuries or whatever regardless of whether they are harmless teen lovers having consenting relationships outside of marriage or a mass murderer it appears to me to be far more innocuous to believe in something in which the punishment is proportional to the suffering dished out to others.

The second paper behind a pay wall seemed to be about generosity in economics (from the intro only), which means they were possibly not even measuring for extreme behaviours, just generosity. It may be for example that the Taliban are generous to the poor, but do not allow women to be visible in the public sphere.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

No one is on this planet by their own volition, and yet each one feels an entitlement to, one, take what they want, and two, treat others however they want.

Speak for yourself.

One has to start to realize why morality is even an issue, and why that it is only humans that protest injustices.

I'm not sure this is true, there are apes that will fend of attacks collectively, however if you are referring to complex language constructions when you say protests, that would be because the other species have not yet evolved such complex language abilities.

...we are here for a reason, and apparently, everyone's life matters. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us all to be fair, compassionate, supportive and harmless amongst each other.

With you so far.

None of these sentiments would bear any significance if there were no God - an architect of justice, and the source of our recognition of righteousness.

I disagree, these sentiments would still be relevant to the harmonious operation of human society, and therefore would have signifigance to us.

Those with the mental capacity to understand the concept of God, are without excuse, and their fate, which they chose themselves, is self-inflicted and justified.

I don't think they chose to disbelieve in your Biblical God which there is no evidence for any more than you chose not to believe in Zeus or other figures you don't believe in.

In my opinion.

 

[rational experiences]

Basic natural human.

Has two of their own special human parents who created their life by sex.

A physical biological chosen human condition. For as long as humans have been humans sex is why any human today tells stories.

A baby adult human theist said our first two parents came from an evil state.

Natural history looking back not lying says for a long time humans lived as just humans with no science.

No thesis stories.
No machines
No God converted irradiations.

Humans.

So we teach the atmosphere created a long time ago in a huge earth heavens sun conversion of earth the state recording a state.

Where earth as a reactive body was recorded itself first. The state image.

No humans just a flooded earth says science the theist. The state to record.

Men designed science their selves. Not owning natural history not in any thesis they inferred what science as a human design would become.

A machine was the answer.

So machines as a built converter in memory natural modern life was put between natural life history...science...modern adult theism.

Forming lies to be thought. By recorded advice.

As if life was once only lived as a spirit. A human spirit in a state recorded.

All the recorded lives are deceased. Died naturally and the death not recorded.

A very long time before after ice age modern life science by machines had began to eradicate life by human self combustion. Then all life was eradicated

That event was actually recorded.

Records. Memories. Falsified today. machine status as mind interference.

Caused by the atmospheric memory of recordings.

First two human beings life was living after a healthy.monkey living its life

Is the closest human living information about biology.

Which is not any thesis by human inventive machine thesis.

Hell in God is a nuclear conversion relating to God mass in an extreme heat where humans never even existed

Recording is in cloud causes very cold states where image is seen reflected as water cold is our life living spirit.

Water existed as mass cold before we did.

Which is not any status hell.

Memory of science human chosen told us the event occurred only in a huge massive earth conversion as the status equals answer.

 

[Muffled]

It seems as though even if hell is not eternal in nature it still promotes an irrational fear in people and there are plenty of irrational fears that have lead to fanaticism.

Would it not make sense to promote scepticism about irrational fears people have in an effort to undermine them and thus minimise fanaticism?

To clarify im not talking about some sort of spiritual suffering which a person may experience even within there lifetime, I have in mind a literal hellfire which a person will burn or be physically tormented in for ages.

Thoughts?

I don't believe I have ever seen a study on what engenders fanaticism. It might be a part of a person's nature to freak out.

 

[Muffled]

When its comes to being tormented, mistreated, abused, etc many people live in hell everyday. To them hell is on earth.

I believe the torment in Hell is actually believing that the burning is real. Once the body is ash there is no more reality to the burning.

 

[Muffled]

I believe the existence of an after death moral reckoning to be basic spiritual truth. Whether or not this reckoning involves a literal place of penal fire is not something I would assert with certainty, although the image of such a place is found not only in Christianity and Islam but in Hinduism and Buddhism as well. The doctrine may make modern westerners uncomfortable but that is the nature of hard spiritual truths.

Now granted, I hope Christianity and Islam are mistaken about Hell's eternity, but the idea that there are spiritual consequences for how we live our earthly lives should not at all be denied or downplayed. It should not be denied because modern westerners do not like the idea of being liable for spiritual punishment for their lives of unrepentant vice.

I believe the definition includes two meanings: I believe timelessness fits Hell. My pastor only agrees with the first definition of unending.

infinite or unending time.
"their love was sealed for eternity"

Similar:
ever

all time

perpetuity

• a state to which time has no application; timelessness.