Even if hell is not eternal in nature.

[danieldemol]

Facts. I've seen how hell beliefs harm people - especially those with mental illness. When folks are so fearful that people they care about will be tortured forever, they live in perpetual angst, or act in ways that are harmful.

Thanks for your post, I wonder how long a torment needs to be before one would be prepared to go to extreme lengths to stop it, would a thousand or tens of thousands of years of fiery torment be long enough?

 

[danieldemol]

Honestly, what you proposed is a human outcome and can be explored with a study. This kind of thing simply cannot be just assumed with out being a person who personally experienced something. Even then, it could fall into an anecdotal fallacy.

You are simply making all kinds of beliefs of your own about "others".

I agree that it needs a study to confirm it, but I dont think the logic of what I'm saying should be dismissed without hard data to dismiss it.

I notice you are still not prepared to engage with the thought experiment. Are you afraid of the obvious answer to the question posed?

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

That's exactly what the world is doing - you included. Ironically it leads to a different kind of fanaticism which opposes anything religious.

See post #22 for my explanation of why I'm not promoting fanaticism.

In my opinion.

 

[DNB]

It seems as though even if hell is not eternal in nature it still promotes an irrational fear in people and there are plenty of irrational fears that have lead to fanaticism.

Would it not make sense to promote scepticism about irrational fears people have in an effort to undermine them and thus minimise fanaticism?

To clarify im not talking about some sort of spiritual suffering which a person may experience even within there lifetime, I have in mind a literal hellfire which a person will burn or be physically tormented in for ages.

Thoughts?

If you're merely asking about the notion of dispelling fear in people about the after-life, and not about exactly what damnation may mean theologically, i would answer by saying that, if true, it is incumbent upon the one who legislated the consequence to warn the potential victims of His wrath. Therefore, fanaticism itself is subjective to the interpretation of the individual - if they choose to speak of God's offer of Redemption strictly from a punitive context.
That is, the threat is real, and cannot be overlooked or downplayed. If there is a God, and He is holy, righteous and just, and that sin is an abomination to both Him and man, then invariably, defiance to God must be consequential. No one is promoting fanaticism by announcing the warnings and threats, ...again, provided that they are real and not exaggerated.

 

[Clara Tea]

It seems as though even if hell is not eternal in nature it still promotes an irrational fear in people and there are plenty of irrational fears that have lead to fanaticism.

Would it not make sense to promote scepticism about irrational fears people have in an effort to undermine them and thus minimise fanaticism?

To clarify im not talking about some sort of spiritual suffering which a person may experience even within there lifetime, I have in mind a literal hellfire which a person will burn or be physically tormented in for ages.

Thoughts?

Hell obviously is not eternal. Revelation says that 2 demons from hell (named the dragon and the beast) would rise from the bottomless pit of hell to be presidents of the most powerful and richest nation of the world, then attack Babylon, Iraq. So, those demonic spirits are George H. W. Bush and his son, George W. Bush.

Also, babies often ascend to heaven, because they are innocent. But, they have not been thoroughly tested. Once in heaven, they mature, and sometimes turn bad, at which time they are condemned to hell.

It stands to reason that some in hell could repent and be saved.

 

[firedragon]

I agree that it needs a study to confirm it, but I dont think the logic of what I'm saying should be dismissed without hard data to dismiss it.

Nah. It should be.

 

[danieldemol]

No one is promoting fanaticism by announcing the warnings and threats, ...again, provided that they are real and not exaggerated.

It seems as though we should be carefully investigating whether they are real given that as you say, it is provided upon them being real that it is not simply promoting fanaticism.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

Nah. It should be.

You can't refute the logic of the thought experiment, so never mind, wait in ignorance till someone with the resources to undertake a study looks into it to confirm what is obvious.

That's your prerogative.

In my opinion.

 

[DNB]

It seems as though we should be carefully investigating whether they are real given that as you say, it is provided upon them being real that it is not simply promoting fanaticism.

In my opinion.

Well, clearly the ones exhorting the warnings believe that they are real, for that is exactly how it is stipulated in the Bible - chose life or death, chose eternal peace, or eternal torment - the wages of sin are death, etc...
These warnings are imperative in order to appreciate the gravity of the situation. Who asks someone to do a dangerous task without laying out the consequences of failure or accident, first? How remiss and irresponsible it would be to not express the dangers of a life and death situation. Again, if a particular preacher subjectively chooses to dwell solely on that aspect of the Word of God, it is his approach that is in question, not the veracity of his message.
When one sins, punishment is requisite, but the measure of discipline varies from one person to another - whether one is more just than another is not the point in this OP, it is the fact that punishment is obligatory. Therefore, one cannot preach the Gospel of Christ (grace and mercy), without mentioning the wrath of God also.

 

[danieldemol]

Well, clearly the ones exhorting the warnings believe that they are real

Sure they do, but I doubt their belief is justified.

If I had a child that I loved and had the power to reform it instead of just burning it, then I would.

People claim that God loves us, yet let's us burn rather than reform us.

It doesn't add up.

In my opinion.

 

[ajay0]

It seems as though even if hell is not eternal in nature it still promotes an irrational fear in people and there are plenty of irrational fears that have lead to fanaticism.

Would it not make sense to promote scepticism about irrational fears people have in an effort to undermine them and thus minimise fanaticism?

To clarify im not talking about some sort of spiritual suffering which a person may experience even within there lifetime, I have in mind a literal hellfire which a person will burn or be physically tormented in for ages.

Thoughts?

The dharmic religious philosophies talk about heaven and hell, but they are considered to be of a temporary nature. After enjoying the karma of one's good deeds in heaven or suffering for one's evil deeds in hell, one again takes rebirth. This process continues on till Nirvana or enlightenment.

An eternal hell where one is fried or barbecued does not exist in the dharmic religious philosophies, and it strikes as absurd as well. For eternal suffering there should be eternal evil karma, which is impossible.

I am aware of some Christians and Muslims exhibiting fear and psychological disorders on account of such notions. In such scenarios, I often cite the Dharmic context and perspective to calm them down and reduce their fears.

Imo, I think these texts were misinterpreted or subject to interpolations by some so as to sort out issues related to apostasy and religious loyalty in the past.

 

[danieldemol]

The dharmic religious philosophies talk about heaven and hell, but they are considered to be of a temporary nature. After enjoying the karma of one's good deeds in heaven or suffering for one's evil deeds in hell, one again takes rebirth. This process continues on till Nirvana or enlightenment.

An eternal hell where one is fried or barbecued does not exist in the dharmic religious philosophies, and it strikes as absurd as well. For eternal suffering there should be eternal evil karma, which is impossible.

I am aware of some Christians and Muslims exhibiting fear and psychological disorders on account of such notions. In such scenarios, I often cite the Dharmic context and perspective to calm them down and reduce their fears.

Imo, I think these texts were misinterpreted or subject to interpolations by some so as to sort out issues related to apostasy and religious loyalty in the past.

What about a hell that is not eternal but very very long, such as one that lasts for "ages"?
Do you think if hell is sufficiently long it would have a similar psychological impact to an eternal hell?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Just like in a judgement in the world, the punishment can be a probation, social work for some stipulated period, jail for five years or fifty; it all depends on the crime. It is applied equally to all, whatever be the religion or the absence of it. Hindu concept of hell is 'incarceration according to crime'. But for Hindu theists, reincarnation, a come back, the cycle of birth and death, is a must. It stops only with 'nirvana', 'moksha', 'enlightenment', 'jnana'.

 

[firedragon]

You can't refute the logic of the thought experiment, so never mind, wait in ignorance till someone with the resources to undertake a study looks into it to confirm what is obvious.

That's your prerogative.

In my opinion.

See, you cant get out of ignorance by making some facade assumption based on nothing. You can only get out of ignorance by actually researching the subject. Just making statements like "obvious" is not getting out of ignorance.

 

[stvdv]

It seems as though even if hell is not eternal in nature it still promotes an irrational fear in people and there are plenty of irrational fears that have lead to fanaticism.

True. And people in fear do "stupid" things. In Dutch we have a saying "cornered cat makes weird jumps".

Would it not make sense to promote scepticism about irrational fears people have in an effort to undermine them and thus minimise fanaticism?

Thoughts?

Yesterday I had a similar thought, and even thought to make a thread about it, not needed anymore, thanks:
"it would be much better for the world if they drop the concept of Hell, which causes fanaticism, hate and destruction"

 

[rational experiences]

Basic theme is present humans theorising reasons.

Spiritual being highest form natural healthy living kind caring mutual hence equal one human owning two selves for continuance.

Human. Holy two humans.

Nature garden body that owned wood hence was burnt as compared to self.

Human comparing bodies is a thinker theist.

Hence human warning never look back and theory as you aren't there. You are not a tree a burnt substance compared to bio life.

As we give ourselves all warnings

Hence humans today contend with UFO radiation theists claiming an alien within with a UFO converting created first humans.

Pretending our natural human parents having human sex as our vessels human were Adam and Eve aliens converted via burning cooling as a ship into life. Fake theism.

What biblical scholars argue against today. Satanisms. Theories opposing the nature of genesis.

As genetics are self owned only in self body presence.

Memories proven are voice imaged in gas burning water cooled is term spirit. Human first life all destroyed by pyramid science went to gods hell. Is now just a memory of an unnatural human science caused death. A long time ago when earths mass shifted.

Gods hell carpenter is tectonic plate volcanic death. Where the UFO is seen leaving from. As earths attack was not stopping until year 2012. Known in human sciences.

Humans dying unnaturally everyday from UFO irradiation fallout. Satanic sciences. Not stopped.

We don't own gods hell as god mass is first. No man is God as gods body owns hell the teaching. Hell is within the ship of stone god ark travelling in space.

Very basic. Ignored advice.

Hell is a science memory about man's sin disobeying gods fusion laws and consequence inherited unnatural death.

Hell exists as an atmospheric memory recording only. Spirits of God it's own earth planet gas memories.

Humans today just get irradiated hurt not the same equals event as mass is involved as the reason an event. Satanists however wish it wasn't as they try to string info together.

Natural humans had to argue why they believed they never went to hell which is to theory against satanism. The truth was caused once only.

So you would wonder why it is pursued today.

Science was first theoried by a spiritual thinker not an evil.thinker. science in modern life was heard psychically.

Burnt irradiated attacked life heard it by physical hearing as proof of attack.

Cannot discuss an attack without being a human first as proof we never came from hell.

 

[stvdv]

It seems as though even if hell is not eternal in nature it still promotes an irrational fear in people and there are plenty of irrational fears that have lead to fanaticism.

We have plenty of proof how destructive this "Hell" belief is. Although if one has Wisdom then one won't fall for the "Hell" trap. This shows the impact of imbalanced emotions. Hell seems to be just a kind of trigger for a deep hidden fear inside of us, or just lack of Love.

Its not demonstrated through observation if there is no data, that doesn't mean there is no truth to it.

Even better, Truth is beyond words/data. So, people asking for proof about Spiritual matters don't understand that Truth is beyond words

 

[PearlSeeker]

It seems as though even if hell is not eternal in nature it still promotes an irrational fear in people and there are plenty of irrational fears that have lead to fanaticism.

Would it not make sense to promote scepticism about irrational fears people have in an effort to undermine them and thus minimise fanaticism?

To clarify im not talking about some sort of spiritual suffering which a person may experience even within there lifetime, I have in mind a literal hellfire which a person will burn or be physically tormented in for ages.

Thoughts?

Early Christian Universalists, most notably Origen of Alexandria (c. 184–c. 253), and Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335–c. 395), understood the lake of fire as a symbolic purifying fire used to eliminate the dross from the gold, or a "refiner's crucible". Origen refers to the "lead of wickedness" that must be refined out of the gold. Origen obtained his Universalist views, known then as apocatastasis, from his mentor Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–c. 215), who was a student of Pantaenus. Origen explained the refining metaphor in response to a philosopher named Celsus who accused Christians of representing God as a merciless tormentor armed with fire.

(Wiki)

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

It seems as though even if hell is not eternal in nature it still promotes an irrational fear in people and there are plenty of irrational fears that have lead to fanaticism.

Would it not make sense to promote scepticism about irrational fears people have in an effort to undermine them and thus minimise fanaticism?

To clarify im not talking about some sort of spiritual suffering which a person may experience even within there lifetime, I have in mind a literal hellfire which a person will burn or be physically tormented in for ages.

Thoughts?

Dear danieldemol

I agree in that preaching about (going to) Hell is counterproductive, if that’s what you mean. We never find faith through fear, we find it through compassion and selflessness.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[ajay0]

What about a hell that is not eternal but very very long, such as one that lasts for "ages"?
Do you think if hell is sufficiently long it would have a similar psychological impact to an eternal hell?

Obviously if very grave sins or vices are performed, hellish suffering can last for a very, very long time. It is the same as when we live on earth.

There are smaller prison terms for stealing a mobile or a watch from a shop and longer prison terms for bigger offences like murder, assault, rape, bank robbery and so on.

Do you think if hell is sufficiently long it would have a similar psychological impact to an eternal hell?

There is accountability in the Dharmic hell. You reap what you sow. For evil karma's you have to suffer accordingly, even if it is for a long time. A long time of hellish suffering obviously means that one has done a lot of bad karmas. It is fair and square.

The Abrahamic hell however is disproportionate. Performance of some vices means you are in hell forever. The very notion in itself can make your living life hell with fear and anxiety.