Eve and the Serpent - Jews and Christians

[viole]

I believe drama often results from sin.

Well, we have drama if we have a hissy fit every time our children disobey. But, of course, I would expect that a God does not have hissy fits, nor that He can get too emotional about things. Such a God would just show His origin, namely in the minds of the emotional people who made Him up.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Brian2]

Well, we have drama if we have a hissy fit every time our children disobey. But, of course, I would expect that a God does not have hissy fits, nor that He can get too emotional about things. Such a God would just show His origin, namely in the minds of the emotional people who made Him up.

Ciao

- viole

God knew what would happen and what He would do and He did it. Where is the hissy fit?

 

[Muffled]

Well, we have drama if we have a hissy fit every time our children disobey. But, of course, I would expect that a God does not have hissy fits, nor that He can get too emotional about things. Such a God would just show His origin, namely in the minds of the emotional people who made Him up.

Ciao

- viole

I believe God gets angry. The Bible says so. I do not see that as an emotion. No doubt in humans it engenders an emotional response but God has good control over that even when He is in Jesus.

I believe God has no origin. The idea that He is made up is pure fantasy.

 

[viole]

I believe God has no origin. The idea that He is made up is pure fantasy.

Yet, you must believe that the other thousands of gods people believe in, or believed in, must be made up. Correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[CBM]

This is going to be long, so feel free to read only the summary at the end if you’d like.

Speaking as an Orthodox Jew:

1. As rosends said, the verse does not mean immediate death, rather it means that on the day they eat from the tree they will become mortal.

2. How can Adam and Eve be held responsible if they were not equipped with the tools (knowledge between good and evil) to make the correct decision and avoid the tree of knowledge between good and evil?

Rambam (Maimonides) posits that the tree didn’t give us an understanding of good and evil, rather it transformed an earlier understanding of right and wrong to knowledge between good and evil.
Da’as is experiential understanding. Prior to eating from the tree, right and wrong were clearly viewed as truth and falsehood. Post-sin we gained experiential knowledge of right and wrong, transforming our choices from between true and false to good and evil. Desire entered the mix (going from just a part of who we are to what drives us) clouding our perception. It’s a lot harder to differentiate between what is truly “good” (right and true) and our desires.

3. Was the snake telling the truth?

Genesis 3:22 clearly states that the serpent was telling the truth.
Which is strange. Is the knowledge of good and evil such a defining characteristic of godliness? No. Desire, passion, creativity is a form of Godliness. (Elaborated upon below.)

The serpent is described as “arum” cunning. But wasn’t he just being straightforward?
“Arum” also means naked which is kind of the opposite of cunning. His cunning was in the way he presented his argument - seemingly straightforward.

Rabbi SR Hirsch explains it as follows: The serpent was telling Eve - even if God said not to eat from the tree… so what? How do you feel about eating the tree? Do you want to? And who do you think gave you that desire? God! So whatever you do, you’re listening to God.

4. CONTEXT. This episode happened immediately after all the Chayot Hasadeh were brought before Adam as potential mates and he rejected them. (And named them.) The serpent is called Chayot hasadeh as well, solidifying this connection.
Which leads us to the…

5. MOTIVE. The midrash says the serpent wanted Adam to die so he can marry Eve. That is not meant to be taken literally. The understanding is that the serpent was trying to make a point: “How are you as humans so different from us animals? You really are the same. I can be considered an appropriate soulmate for you.
The voice of instinct, passion, desire is the way God speaks to us (animals) and they are trustworthy indicators of God’s will. It’s the same for you. So there is nothing wrong with internalizing your desire and letting it become the locus of your identity.”

(Subsequently, the serpent was punished in a way which made him so markedly different than humans, so that we would no longer confuse ourselves with animals.)

But of course the serpent was wrong. Desire was always a part of humans, but having it become our driver threw us off balance and made it impossible to see right and wrong with clarity (as truth and falsehood).

*****

And the serpent was also right. Desire, particularly the desire to create, is a Godly trait. God’s very desire of something wills it into being.
But God is in control of that desire.
When we ate from the tree we became only half- Godly. Desire, passion, creativity became too powerful an engine for us, since at the end of the day, we are only human. We no longer had the objectivity to steer our desires correctly since desire became part of who we are.

And so, a new world is necessary to suit the new reality we created for ourselves.

A new reality where nakedness (the word arum again) was a source of fear. Where previously sexuality and all desire was an accepted part of life, nakedness now inspired fear because now it became overpowering.

So God gave us clothing, enabling us to contain and direct our desires appropriately.

It says בראתי יצר הרע בראתי תורה תבלין I created the evil inclination (desire) and Torah (known as עץ חיים the new tree of life) as it’s antidote.
Tavlin is the word translated as antidote, but it actually means “spice”. Desire is the meat of life. It can and often does propel us towards what’s right and true. But just as often it does not. How can we become the drivers of our desires and not let our desires drive us? How can we know when we are truly making a morally good choice or whether it’s just subjective desire clouding our judgement?

The answer is the new tree of life, again, created specifically for our new reality - the Torah.
The Torah is our guide to God’s will, Jew and Gentile alike. Without the Torah, we are much more likely to be steered wrong.

“In assimilating the viewpoint of the Torah, humanity would be able to sit firmly behind the steering wheel, and we would become fully Godly beings, wisely wielding the power of our engines”. Fohrman, D. (2007). The Beast that Crouches at the Door: Adam & Eve, Cain & Abel, and Beyond : a Biblical Exploration.
(Many of the ideas in this post are taken from there.)


To summarize: There was free choice before the sin. However it was on an entirely different level. It was truth vs falsehood and desire was something we were able to employ at our disposal in the pursuit of truth or falsehood, were we to choose to do so. Eating from the tree of knowledge made desire our driving force.
Had Adam and Eve chosen correctly the purpose of creation would have been fulfilled at the time. However they made a choice which propelled us into a state of confusion, necessitating a new set of circumstances to enable us to make correct decisions from our new vantage point.

 

[Brian2]

The answer is the new tree of life, again, created specifically for our new reality - the Torah.
The Torah is our guide to God’s will, Jew and Gentile alike. Without the Torah, we are much more likely to be steered wrong.

“In assimilating the viewpoint of the Torah, humanity would be able to sit firmly behind the steering wheel, and we would become fully Godly beings, wisely wielding the power of our engines”. Fohrman, D. (2007). The Beast that Crouches at the Door: Adam & Eve, Cain & Abel, and Beyond : a Biblical Exploration.
(Many of the ideas in this post are taken from there.)

I liked the post overall but disagreed with who the serpent was however.
Anyway, to assimilate the viewpoint of the Torah from a Christian perspective requires a change of heart and God's Spirit in us to guide us so that we are in harmony with Him.
The Torah alone did not do it but pointed to the New Covenant with God's Spirit being the Torah in us.
Ezek 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.

 

[Muffled]

Yet, you must believe that the other thousands of gods people believe in, or believed in, must be made up. Correct?

Ciao

- viole

I believe the other gods have no valid text to support what is said about them except the ones in the Bible and God does refer to them as unresponsive so it may very well be that they were made up.

 

[viole]

I believe the other gods have no valid text to support what is said about them except the ones in the Bible and God does refer to them as unresponsive so it may very well be that they were made up.

Who decides what a valid text is? By the way, they same the same about your God. That He is made up. Who should I believe?

ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

Who decides what a valid text is? By the way, they same the same about your God. That He is made up. Who should I believe?

ciao

- viole

I believe it is a matter of the Holy Spirit accepting the Text. The Holy Spirit accepts the Bible and the Qu'ran.

I believe anyone can say anything but they can't back up what they say.

I believe you should believe the Holy Spirit. However I can see where this would be a problem for you. So I believe you have to rely on other people (like me) who have the Holy Spirit and can back up what we say.

 

[viole]

I believe it is a matter of the Holy Spirit accepting the Text. The Holy Spirit accepts the Bible and the Qu'ran.

I believe anyone can say anything but they can't back up what they say.

I believe you should believe the Holy Spirit. However I can see where this would be a problem for you. So I believe you have to rely on other people (like me) who have the Holy Spirit and can back up what we say.

I wonder how you are going to back that up, since there is no evidence whatsoever of any spirit. Including the ones of the Holy kind.

ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

I wonder how you are going to back that up, since there is no evidence whatsoever of any spirit. Including the ones of the Holy kind.

ciao

- viole

I believe I am the evidence.

 

[Mark La Buda]

At Genesis 3;4, Satan stated to Eve: "You positively will not die." "Technically" Satan did lie. (John 8:44; 1 John 3:8) Yes, the Bible does not indicate when Eve died; however, she did.-Romans 5:12; 6:23; 1 Corinthians 15:21.

 

[Muffled]

Well, we have drama if we have a hissy fit every time our children disobey. But, of course, I would expect that a God does not have hissy fits, nor that He can get too emotional about things. Such a God would just show His origin, namely in the minds of the emotional people who made Him up.

Ciao

- viole

Perhaps we are made in His image. Then emotions from God would make sense.

 

[Mark La Buda]

Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.

1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.

2. The Serpent was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.

God punished The Serpent for revealing the truth.

So says the devils advocate...

Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.
- Other biblical books besides the Torah/Pentateuch.
- Your faith. I care about what the text says.

I am very interested in hearing Jewish interpretation of these verse.

Jewish and Christian commentaries are allowed.

Note: Changed Satan to Serpent.

Satan did indeed lie to Eve. Genesis 3:4 reads: “You positively will not die.” Eve did die. Considering Genesis 3:5: “…you are bound to be like God….” Eve, nor any human ever born, was deemed or able or capable to be like God.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.]

Then, assuming that I understand the bias underlining your 'hatred' of retcons, I'll leave you to youre sham debate.

 

[dybmh]

Satan did indeed lie to Eve. Genesis 3:4 reads: “You positively will not die.” Eve did die. Considering Genesis 3:5: “…you are bound to be like God….” Eve, nor any human ever born, was deemed or able or capable to be like God.

The serpent lied ... in the translation you are using.

But, actually the serpent didn't lie. That's what makes the serpent dangerous. What's needed is to look closely at the original hebrew.

For example: The serpent doesn't say "You positively will not die." That's not what's written. The serpent says, "No surely die". That's it, no punctuation, no other words. Just 3 words in that order, "No surely die".

If you pay close attention to the answer Eve gives the serpent ( again using a reliable close translation ), you'll see that Eve doesn't correctly render God's command. There's several differences; one of them is, she says "you shall not... lest you die." But that's not what God commands. The command that God gives is "surely die". She left that tiny bit out. She left out the "surely". This difference, and the others, gives the serpent an opportunity.

So, the serpent wasn't lying when it said "no surely die". It was, in a way, correcting her. "No. Surely-die." Is one way of understanding what was said. Or, it could be "no-surely-die." Which is what your transation has chosen and exaggerated.

Anyway, the details of the story are complicated. But I think it's important to know that the serpent didn't lie, it was very clever, but God is smarter, of course, in the story. But just because someone / something is speaking truthfully, that doesn't mean it can be trusted.

 

[YoursTrue]

Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.

1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.

2. The Serpent was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.

God punished The Serpent for revealing the truth.

So says the devils advocate...

Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.
- Other biblical books besides the Torah/Pentateuch.
- Your faith. I care about what the text says.

I am very interested in hearing Jewish interpretation of these verse.

Jewish and Christian commentaries are allowed.

Note: Changed Satan to Serpent.

First of all, that she would be "like God" doesn't mean that she could have the perception of good and bad as God does. She wanted to make her own decisions as to what was right and wrong, or good and evil. In that sense, she decided she didn't need God to tell her right from wrong. But she found out.

 

[YoursTrue]

The serpent lied ... in the translation you are using.

But, actually the serpent didn't lie. That's what makes the serpent dangerous. What's needed is to look closely at the original hebrew.

For example: The serpent doesn't say "You positively will not die." That's not what's written. The serpent says, "No surely die". That's it, no punctuation, no other words. Just 3 words in that order, "No surely die".

If you pay close attention to the answer Eve gives the serpent ( again using a reliable close translation ), you'll see that Eve doesn't correctly render God's command. There's several differences; one of them is, she says "you shall not... lest you die." But that's not what God commands. The command that God gives is "surely die". She left that tiny bit out. She left out the "surely". This difference, and the others, gives the serpent an opportunity.

So, the serpent wasn't lying when it said "no surely die". It was, in a way, correcting her. "No. Surely-die." Is one way of understanding what was said. Or, it could be "no-surely-die." Which is what your transation has chosen and exaggerated.

Anyway, the details of the story are complicated. But I think it's important to know that the serpent didn't lie, it was very clever, but God is smarter, of course, in the story. But just because someone / something is speaking truthfully, that doesn't mean it can be trusted.

The serpent wasn't there to be Eve's friend to encourage her to be faithful (obedient) to God, her Maker. Yes, he knew he was twisting the option given to Eve through Adam in order to deceive her. Actually, the serpent wasn't there to be God's friend either.

 

[dybmh]

The serpent wasn't there to be Eve's friend to encourage her to be faithful (obedient) to God, her Maker. Yes, he knew he was twisting the option given to Eve through Adam in order to deceive her. Actually, the serpent wasn't there to be God's friend either.

Yes, and the fact that it didn't lie is interesting. I doubt that it could lie.

At the very least, it shows that "truth" is not the same as "holy".

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, and the fact that it didn't lie is interesting. I doubt that it could lie.

At the very least, it shows that "truth" is not the same as "holy".

That is perhaps why some things are called diabolical. (Twisted and viciously convoluted.) No one will convince me that the person behind the serpent did not know what he was doing. He knew, if he succeeded, that...ok I'll leave the answer to the question up to you...