Eve and the Serpent - Jews and Christians

[Samael_Khan]

Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.

1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.

2. The Serpent was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.

God punished The Serpent for revealing the truth.

So says the devils advocate...

Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.
- Other biblical books besides the Torah/Pentateuch.
- Your faith. I care about what the text says.

I am very interested in hearing Jewish interpretation of these verse.

Jewish and Christian commentaries are allowed.

Note: Changed Satan to Serpent.

 

[Thief]

God created Man a little less than the angels

and then said to the angels...... Man is less than you
therefore...seek after him that he stub not his toe nor dash his head

One third of heaven said .....Nay!
that he is less....he should be made to serve us!

one third of heaven lost their positions for that argument
about something that looks like .....us

and when the garden event came to pass
there seemed an opportunity to sway the development of Man

God had given direction.....eat not of this tree
for in the day that you do.....you shall die

and the Serpent came with contrary words
but he did not lie

Eve did partake.....and continued breathing
for how long.....we know not

but death did come
and the card was dealt in that day she did partake

Genesis has some wordplay
skill is required

 

[Thief]

the catch word .....Serpent
is NOT a description of form

it is notation of character

 

[Samael_Khan]

and then said to the angels...... Man is less than you
therefore...seek after him that he stub not his toe nor dash his head

One third of heaven said .....Nay!
that he is less....he should be made to serve us!

one third of heaven lost their positions for that argument
about something that looks like .....us

Where in the Torah does it say this?

and when the garden event came to pass
there seemed an opportunity to sway the development of Man

God had given direction.....eat not of this tree
for in the day that you do.....you shall die

and the Serpent came with contrary words
but he did not lie

Agreed

Eve did partake.....and continued breathing
for how long.....we know not

but death did come
and the card was dealt in that day she did partake

So do you think that she would live forever because she would have continued eating from the tree of life?

 

[Samael_Khan]

the catch word .....Serpent
is NOT a description of form

it is notation of character

I am inclined to agree with you on this.

 

[epronovost]

I am inclined to agree with you on this.

Then why did God's curse on the serpent forces him to crawl on his belly, robs him of speech and forces him to eat dirt (which was believed to be something snakes eat at the time) as well as making snakes and people enemies?

 

[Brian2]

Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.

1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.

2. Satan was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.

God punished Satan for revealing the truth.

So says the devils advocate...

It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so knowing good and evil after eating it is to be expected.
Eve was kicked out of the Garden and any access to the tree of life. So she died, and that was a consequence of eating the fruit that God said not to.
Adam and Eve were innocent and weren't ready for "good and evil" to enter into their lives. That is sort of like sexually abusing a child.
Satan was punished for going against God's express wishes when he should have known better. He rebelled, knowing the consequences for Adam and Eve. He lied and killed them.

 

[Thief]

Where in the Torah does it say this?

Agreed

So do you think that she would live forever because she would have continued eating from the tree of life?

man had been created on Day Six........as a species
male and female....no names
no garden.....no law
go forth, be fruitful, multiply and dominate all things

we did

and we learned that snatch and grab......run away
and we would have overrun this planet and it's resources without developing any spirit

the garden event is a story of manipulation
a chosen specimen...extended life by a petri dish shelter
so to speak

the experiment was going well
and to keep it going.....the specimen needed a mate.....suitable

Eve was not born of woman
no navel

I suspect Adam understood the warning of death
he had been chosen
coming from multitude already spreading across the earth
he likely knew of death before his entry into the garden

Eve did not

the story is one of .......acquisition
it was a test

all that manipulation..... but was it enough?
would Man .....BE.....that animal curious
even if death was a pending consequence

Eve passed the test.....but she likely did not understand the terms
until the acquisition was made
Adam passed the test.....as well
but would be more deliberate....more intentional

the garden had served it's purpose and was dismantled
cast out into the environment
it would seem as punishment

as for the tree of life.......eternal life?
that acquisition is yet to be made

I would like to think.....the first couple passed the test of death
into life

 

[rosends]

Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.

1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.

2. Satan was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.

God punished Satan for revealing the truth.

So says the devils advocate...

Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.
- Other biblical books besides the Torah/Pentateuch.
- Your faith. I care about what the text says.

I am very interested in hearing Jewish interpretation of these verse.

Jewish and Christian commentaries are allowed.

I'm a bit confused as you ask for both "what the text says" and "interpretations" but I will add in a few ideas.

The nachash doesn't lie but he calls God's command into question. He asks "Did God actually forbid your eating of the fruit of that tree"? He capitalizes on her lack of firm knowledge because God hadn't told HER anything. She got it second hand, from Adam. So when she restates it she says that the prohibition was against TOUCHING, not eating (which is either a mistake Adam made in the retelling, or that she made as an innovation and expansion). The snake then can prove that touching carries no consequence.

Then we have the result -- the text doesn't say that anyone will die, but that they will be subject to a death penalty (and, by extension, the idea of death will be injected into the human condition) as people cannot continue to live once there is an awareness of evil. Evil and temptation then become engrained in humanity, and this is what God was hoping (as it were) to avoid.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.

1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.

2. Satan was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.

God punished Satan for revealing the truth.

So says the devils advocate...

Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.
- Other biblical books besides the Torah/Pentateuch.
- Your faith. I care about what the text says.

I am very interested in hearing Jewish interpretation of these verse.

Jewish and Christian commentaries are allowed.

The whole serpent is the devil, is a jealous Satan who rebelled against god is Christian retcon.

 

[firedragon]

Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.

1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.

2. Satan was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.

God punished Satan for revealing the truth.

So says the devils advocate...

Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.
- Other biblical books besides the Torah/Pentateuch.
- Your faith. I care about what the text says.

I am very interested in hearing Jewish interpretation of these verse.

Jewish and Christian commentaries are allowed.

1. You have misunderstood the "death" related to eating this fruit. This death is not a physical death. its a spiritual death. Similar to many other places in the Bible like Ezekiel where it says "the soul that sins shall die" and then goes onto say something like the one who repents and turns from sin shall "live". This does not mean sinners will physically die quickly and the repenters and turners from sin will live for ever.

2. See, none of these verses of Genesis says anything about Satan. It just says Serpent. Later people read Satan "Into the text".

 

[sun rise]

I don't take the text as literal but a metaphor of the loss of innocence when the bipolar dimension of good and evil manifested in the human mind.

 

[Thief]

for clarity.....does anyone equate
Serpent....and ....Lucifer

the story takes a different .....LIGHT
if it is God's Favored
acting as Serpent

 

[Thief]

I don't take the text as literal but a metaphor of the loss of innocence when the bipolar dimension of good and evil manifested in the human mind.

bipolar?.......as in mental condition?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Then why did God's curse on the serpent forces him to crawl on his belly, robs him of speech and forces him to eat dirt (which was believed to be something snakes eat at the time) as well as making snakes and people enemies?

From what I understand the Jews always understood the Genesis account as metaphorical. That is why I favour that interpretation. It all symbolizes something else.

If taken literally then it is hogwash.

But, for the sake of this thread I am using the literal interpretation as is used by Christians.

 

[Samael_Khan]

It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so knowing good and evil after eating it is to be expected.
Eve was kicked out of the Garden and any access to the tree of life. So she died, and that was a consequence of eating the fruit that God said not to.
Adam and Eve were innocent and weren't ready for "good and evil" to enter into their lives. That is sort of like sexually abusing a child.
Satan was punished for going against God's express wishes when he should have known better. He rebelled, knowing the consequences for Adam and Eve. He lied and killed them.

Where does it say that Eve ate the tree of life in the first place? It was never mentioned until they exited the garden.

God also says that if they eat from the tree of life then they would live forever, so does that mean that they didn't eat from it yet or did they have to eat from it continuously?

Adam and Eve became like God knowing good and evil, which is what God says. Did he fear that?

 

[Samael_Khan]

man had been created on Day Six........as a species
male and female....no names
no garden.....no law
go forth, be fruitful, multiply and dominate all things

we did

and we learned that snatch and grab......run away
and we would have overrun this planet and it's resources without developing any spirit

the garden event is a story of manipulation
a chosen specimen...extended life by a petri dish shelter
so to speak

the experiment was going well
and to keep it going.....the specimen needed a mate.....suitable

Eve was not born of woman
no navel

I suspect Adam understood the warning of death
he had been chosen
coming from multitude already spreading across the earth
he likely knew of death before his entry into the garden

Eve did not

the story is one of .......acquisition
it was a test

all that manipulation..... but was it enough?
would Man .....BE.....that animal curious
even if death was a pending consequence

Eve passed the test.....but she likely did not understand the terms
until the acquisition was made
Adam passed the test.....as well
but would be more deliberate....more intentional

the garden had served it's purpose and was dismantled
cast out into the environment
it would seem as punishment

as for the tree of life.......eternal life?
that acquisition is yet to be made

I would like to think.....the first couple passed the test of death
into life

Your understanding of the story is pretty fascinating.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I'm a bit confused as you ask for both "what the text says" and "interpretations" but I will add in a few ideas.

The nachash doesn't lie but he calls God's command into question. He asks "Did God actually forbid your eating of the fruit of that tree"? He capitalizes on her lack of firm knowledge because God hadn't told HER anything. She got it second hand, from Adam. So when she restates it she says that the prohibition was against TOUCHING, not eating (which is either a mistake Adam made in the retelling, or that she made as an innovation and expansion). The snake then can prove that touching carries no consequence.

Then we have the result -- the text doesn't say that anyone will die, but that they will be subject to a death penalty (and, by extension, the idea of death will be injected into the human condition) as people cannot continue to live once there is an awareness of evil. Evil and temptation then become engrained in humanity, and this is what God was hoping (as it were) to avoid.

What I meant was that interpretations can come from the text, but they cant be made up or proof texted.

Your understanding of the text seems very christian to me. Is that a standard Jewish interpretation which the Christians adopted?

Or is the difference that Jews don't believe the serpent to be the fallen angel Satan?

 

[Samael_Khan]

The whole serpent is the devil, is a jealous Satan who rebelled against god is Christian retcon.

What was the original interpretation?

 

[Samael_Khan]

1. You have misunderstood the "death" related to eating this fruit. This death is not a physical death. its a spiritual death. Similar to many other places in the Bible like Ezekiel where it says "the soul that sins shall die" and then goes onto say something like the one who repents and turns from sin shall "live". This does not mean sinners will physically die quickly and the repenters and turners from sin will live for ever.

Interesting. Which also makes sense since Adam and Eve didn't physically die within a day and there is no hint that they were immortal to begin with.

2. See, none of these verses of Genesis says anything about Satan. It just says Serpent. Later people read Satan "Into the text".

You are correct. I started off saying serpent then my Christian indoctrination made me say Satan again. My apologies.