eternally transmigrating souls outside Dvaita?

[nathanielfirst]

hello, I was wondering, do Nitya -samsarin souls, the ones that never reunite with God but stay in samsara eternally, exist in Advaita Vedanta, Vishishtadvaita, Dvaidadvaita, etc., ? or anything similar? do nyaya and samkhya recognize anything like this?
I know that I'll not find too many adherents to these minor varieties of Vedanta here but just trying to figure out....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanta#Vishishtadvaita

 

[Pradyumnan]

Hello Nathaniel,
Dvaitha siDhantha of SrImadAnanda tIrTha is al about the difference between the jIvatma and paramAtma. It does not say anything about union with God or not. It propounds the panCaviDha BEda, means the 5 types of differences.
1. The difference between jada(immobile life form) and chara/jIva(movable life form).
2. The difference between jada and jada.
3. The difference between chara/jIva and charajIv.
4. The difference between jada and paramAtma(supreme soul).
5. The difference between paramAtma and chara/jIva.
Dvaitha aims for mOkSa(Liberation of the spirit or Atma). sAMKhya is dualistic(prakRti-puruSha) in similar to dvaitha siDhantha. nyAya also propagates the difference between the supreme soul and the individual soul.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

hello, I was wondering, do Nitya -samsarin souls, the ones that never reunite with God but stay in samsara eternally, exist in Advaita Vedanta, Vishishtadvaita, Dvaidadvaita, etc., ? or anything similar? do nyaya and samkhya recognize anything like this?
I know that I'll not find too many adherents to these minor varieties of Vedanta here but just trying to figure out....

The only group that I know of that believe in eternally transmigrating souls is the followers of madhva. In fact he goes even one more step. He believes that some just devolve farther and farther from God. It seems almost like a Hindu eternal hell to me.

 

[Andal]

I agree with Wannabe Yogi, Dvaita seems to be the only one that has this philosophy. We don't have it in Acintya Bhedabheda.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Madhuri]

Hi Nathaniel,
it is my understanding that no soul remains in Samsara eternally. Existence in the material universe is a process, a constant evolution of consciousness. At some point, our evolution reaches a peak, which we know as Self-Realisation.

By the way, I am Dvaitadvaita devotee, neither complete oneness or difference.

 

[Akshara Dasa]

Hi Nathaniel,
it is my understanding that no soul remains in Samsara eternally. Existence in the material universe is a process, a constant evolution of consciousness. At some point, our evolution reaches a peak, which we know as Self-Realisation.

By the way, I am Dvaitadvaita devotee, neither complete oneness or difference.

I agree with Madhuri here. She is absolutly right according to my view of Conscoiusnes. Change must take place, evolution must occur. Conscoiusness is always in a state of Evolution, its always in a constant state of trying to find its way back to its source, whether one realizes it or not.

We can see around us that everything is always evolving. Plants, Animals, and even we are. But, so is Consciousness. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Consciousness to not get back to its source, it is already part and parcel of the source and therefore yearns to get back to the source. The material pleasures are just temporary set backs or distractions, only if you view them wrong. If you view material pleasures right, they can help you evolve and transcend them. But, we are always evolving, always changing to a higher state. In the game of Self-Realization, I dont believe we loose any advancement that we have earned. In the Bhagavad Gita Sri Krishna says:

Chapter 2, Verse 40.

In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.

Therefore, only evolution can occur. Madhava, as I see it, has been proven wrong by an avatar of his own God.

 

[Pradyumnan]

ACArya maDhwa never said that there is no end to transmigration from soul to soul. What he said is that an Athma will travel from one body to another till it understands the paramAthma and the moment it understands the paramAthma, it will cease to follow the cycle of birth and death, that is mukthi or mOkSHa.


SrImanmaDhwamathE harih paratharah sathyam jagath thathwathA|
BEdO jIvagaNAh harEranuCarAh nICOcca BAvamgathAh||
mukthih naijasuKAnuBUtih amalA BakthiSca tat sADhanam|
akShaditRtiyapramANam aKilAmnAyaika vEdyO harih||

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

ACArya maDhwa never said that there is no end to transmigration from soul to soul. What he said is that an Athma will travel from one body to another till it understands the paramAthma and the moment it understands the paramAthma, it will cease to follow the cycle of birth and death, that is mukthi or mOkSHa.

I have read about Madhva's beliefs from writtings of his followers. I have never read him because he does not apeal to my mind or my way of looking at the world. I got this info off of wiki because it's quick and fast. I do see Dvaita as one of the many schools of thought of Vedanta and it has it's place in Hinduism. Then again it really makes no difference what I believe.

A few teachings of Madhvacharya are different from mainstream Hinduism. The first difference is his doctrine of eternal damnation. Generally, Hindus believe in the eventual salvation of every soul. Many of the doctrines in the Dvaita tradition resemble those of strict monotheism that is predominant among followers of Semitic religions. The second difference is of providing a greater role to Bhakti than ascribed to in other schools of Vedanta. Third difference is the reasoned belief in the supremacy of Vishnu over other deities including Shiva and rejecting the popular Hindu concept of Trinity, Trimurti of Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva. Shiva is worshipped as a subordinate god (deva) by followers of Dvaita. Though this appears intolerant, it is because of the strong monotheistic belief in a non-Impersonal God unlike Advaita for which the identity of God does not matter as it is Nirguna.

Dvaita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My 11 year old son is a Shiva Bhakta. Some of the families at my temple are from a Dvaita tradition when they see my son they hold up two fingers like Madhva. (There are two and differences are real) I find it very funny. My son is just starting to see the humor in this.

 

[Pradyumnan]

And again, to like or dislike a person or writing is one`s own choice, but to derive from Wikipedia? I mean, to know a person or his preachings, one has to indulge into the person`s works directly. But as it is mentioned clearly, if its not appealing, whats the use of going through the hardship of studying it? Thank you friend.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I mean, to know a person or his preachings, one has to indulge into the person`s works directly.

Good point !

 

[Pradyumnan]

You find it funny? Thats funny indeed!

 

[Satsangi]

I am not a Dvaita follower, but I do believe that there are some souls who could be "beyond repair" in a normal fashion. Yes, generally speaking and as a rule, there is spiritual progression from one life to another as the spiritual quest done is never lost. But so are the karmas of bad deeds- they are never lost too. There may be some souls who are so heavily burdened with bad karmas that it becomes virtually impossible for them to do anything for their spiritual advancement for a very very very long time. This may be close to eternal damnation. Eventually, they may get over it with His grace.

Even the so called five "Maha Paap" (great sins)- killing of a child, killing of women, killing of a Guru, killing of a cow and having affair with the wife of the Guru- have some remedies in the Scriptures. But, there is no remedy for "droha" of a BrahmaNishtha Saint. I take the example of Jay and Vijaya who were the guards of Lord Vishnu in Vaikuntha. They insulted and mocked Sanakadik. They had to undergo three births as Asuras and the only remedy for them was their death at the hands of the Lord. Meaning they were "beyond repair" in a normal fashion.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

Namasté Satsangi and all
Picking up on a part of your post above, what fascinates me is what is it that make the change in direction in the person who is heavily burdened with karmas? Any ideas, I appreciate that is is a tricky question.

I have known people who seem to have continued bad luck, which goes from worse to worse and I feel pitty and wonder at how these things could happen to what is generally a friendly person. I think then that the source which can change a person's direction due to their bad karma may need to come from outside of them i.e. in the form of another person or spiritual being. This then is where Dvaita or the dualism of Jivas may become influencial in spiritual progression... perhaps

 

[Satsangi]

Namasté Satsangi and all
Picking up on a part of your post above, what fascinates me is what is it that make the change in direction in the person who is heavily burdened with karmas? Any ideas, I appreciate that is is a tricky question.

I have known people who seem to have continued bad luck, which goes from worse to worse and I feel pitty and wonder at how these things could happen to what is generally a friendly person. I think then that the source which can change a person's direction due to their bad karma may need to come from outside of them i.e. in the form of another person or spiritual being. This then is where Dvaita or the dualism of Jivas may become influencial in spiritual progression... perhaps

Hi Onkarah,

I was not talking about simply bad luck in this life; probably that are due to karmas which will not lead to unending re-births. But for some souls with very stron bad karmas- they may enter in the vicious cycle of "almost never ending" re-births.

To answer your question, in my opinion, in both the above scenerios the primary factor that can lead to a reversal of direction is the grace and happiness received from a BraahmaNishtha Saint or and Avathar. For the souls with less of bad karmic burden, even their effort towards spiritual progress brings the grace; for the very bad karmic soul- it can only happen due to His mercy.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

Hi Satsangi
Sorry for the confusion, I understood you point on "almost never ending" re-births, but took the opportunity to inject my own question and thoughts based on your wise post. Thanks for the answer.
Onkarah.

 

[Madhuri]

I take the example of Jay and Vijaya who were the guards of Lord Vishnu in Vaikuntha. They insulted and mocked Sanakadik. They had to undergo three births as Asuras and the only remedy for them was their death at the hands of the Lord. Meaning they were "beyond repair" in a normal fashion.

Regards,

Yes but they were cursed specifically. They were not subject to natural laws of karma. I tend to see the the divine pastimes as example or lessons for us to learn from. This is my opinion at least.

 

[Satsangi]

Yes but they were cursed specifically. They were not subject to natural laws of karma. I tend to see the the divine pastimes as example or lessons for us to learn from. This is my opinion at least.

Would not you take the curse was because of their deeds? The law of action and reaction. The Lord is omnipotent and if He wished, He would have nullified the curse for sure; but He let the laws of karma run and He took three Avathars to help these two. I agree 100% that these stories are meant for us to learn the morale which is that even if you reside in the Lord's abode, you cannot get away crossing His Saint. There are other similar examples too.

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Though have no knowledge about such subjects but personally find that when there is nothing, how can there be a*permanent hell* if that is one of Madhav's philosophy.
Besides there is a meeting ground for both heaven and hell like the twilight zone where it is neither dark nor light; meaning one can approach that state of eternity even through the darkness as there is day after the night.

Love & rgds

 

[Akshara Dasa]

Therefore, only evolution can occur. Madhava, as I see it, has been proven wrong by an avatar of his own God.

It was wrong of me to say this, that is criticizing a follower of Vishnu. May Madhava and his followers forgive me.

 

[Pradyumnan]

My dearest brother akshara dasa, you are such a wonderful person! They say, to err is humane-to forgive, divine. May I add, to remorse for what wrong you have done is greater than humane, you are a very good person my brother. By the way, it is maDhwa and not madhava. MADhava is a name of Lord nArAyaNa where as maDhwa is the name of our preceptor. Thank you!