Eternalism/The Block Universe

[EverChanging]

In the theory of eternalism the past, the present, and the future all exist within the universe at different spatio-temporal locations. One's life would be like a book in a sense. You may perceive yourself to be reading one page (conscious at one point), but the past and future events of your life are still contained within the book on different pages.

This idea terrifies me in some ways. It seems to imply that while I can only perceive my present moment, there is a past self to which the past is present and a future self to which the future is present, and it seems to imply that even death itself is not an escape to suffering. My whole life is encased in the universe for all eternity. There will be a point at which I will die, and I will not be aware of future spatio-temporal locations after that, but a conscious self will still be present somewhere in the universe living this whole life.

Are there any philosophical ways of dealing with this problem?

 

[YmirGF]

In the theory of eternalism the past, the present, and the future all exist within the universe at different spatio-temporal locations. One's life would be like a book in a sense. You may perceive yourself to be reading one page (conscious at one point), but the past and future events of your life are still contained within the book on different pages.

This idea terrifies me in some ways. It seems to imply that while I can only perceive my present moment, there is a past self to which the past is present and a future self to which the future is present, and it seems to imply that even death itself is not an escape to suffering. My whole life is encased in the universe for all eternity. There will be a point at which I will die, and I will not be aware of future spatio-temporal locations after that, but a conscious self will still be present somewhere in the universe living this whole life.

Are there any philosophical ways of dealing with this problem?

It is possible to overthink things. Perhaps your problem isn't with reality, but rather, with how you have chosen to perceive reality.

 

[EverChanging]

It is possible to overthink things. Perhaps your problem isn't with reality, but rather, with how you have chosen to perceive reality.

I don't understand how that is helpful. It doesn't address the implications of an Eternalist universe.

 

[robocop (actually)]

In the theory of eternalism the past, the present, and the future all exist within the universe at different spatio-temporal locations. One's life would be like a book in a sense. You may perceive yourself to be reading one page (conscious at one point), but the past and future events of your life are still contained within the book on different pages.

This idea terrifies me in some ways. It seems to imply that while I can only perceive my present moment, there is a past self to which the past is present and a future self to which the future is present, and it seems to imply that even death itself is not an escape to suffering. My whole life is encased in the universe for all eternity. There will be a point at which I will die, and I will not be aware of future spatio-temporal locations after that, but a conscious self will still be present somewhere in the universe living this whole life.

Are there any philosophical ways of dealing with this problem?

I can help. When you realize you aren't responsible for the long-term decisions the stars and planets make long after you are alive, you lose this fear of not being able to do enough supernatural things.

 

[EverChanging]

I can help. When you realize you aren't responsible for the long-term decisions the stars and planets make long after you are alive, you lose this fear of not being able to do enough supernatural things.

What?

 

[robocop (actually)]

What?

People look at the Universe and think they are responsible for the long-term decisions of galaxies and solar systems. If they can avoid that they will be much better off. If that doesn't help I am mistaken. It was a quote from Epicurus and I'd be happy to look it up tomorrow.

 

[EverChanging]

People look at the Universe and think they are responsible for the long-term decisions of galaxies and solar systems. If they can avoid that they will be much better off. If that doesn't help I am mistaken. It was a quote from Epicurus and I'd be happy to look it up tomorrow.

Sorry, that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Sorry, that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

Sure it's not. You're afraid that your life will live on in celestial bodies after you die and you can't get good enough.

 

[EverChanging]

Sure it's not. You're afraid that your life will live on in celestial bodies after you die and you can't get good enough.

Uh, no. I don't think you even read the link to know what I am even talking about.

 

[David T]

In the theory of eternalism the past, the present, and the future all exist within the universe at different spatio-temporal locations. One's life would be like a book in a sense. You may perceive yourself to be reading one page (conscious at one point), but the past and future events of your life are still contained within the book on different pages.

This idea terrifies me in some ways. It seems to imply that while I can only perceive my present moment, there is a past self to which the past is present and a future self to which the future is present, and it seems to imply that even death itself is not an escape to suffering. My whole life is encased in the universe for all eternity. There will be a point at which I will die, and I will not be aware of future spatio-temporal locations after that, but a conscious self will still be present somewhere in the universe living this whole life.

Are there any philosophical ways of dealing with this problem?

OMG you actually might be a part of nature not totally independent from it? Oh God what a terrifying idea...

Breathe learn breathing enjoy sunsets get out more. Maybe even get adventuresome and take a hike out away from people. You must live in the city.

 

[EverChanging]

OMG you actually might be a part of nature not totally independent from it? Oh God what a terrifying idea...

Breathe learn breathing enjoy sunsets get out more. Maybe even get adventuresome and take a hike out away from people. You must live in the city.

Did you even read what eternalism entails in the article I linked? You clearly missed my entire point with your snide comments. No where did I deny being a part of nature nor have any problem with that. What is disturbing to me is the possibility entertained by some physicists that the universe is a block universe in which the past, present, and future all equally exist, thus immortalizing everyone's lifetimes within a limited set of spatio-temporal locations.

Please read the article and my post before making ignorant assumptions.

 

[Apologes]

Well, I think the mere fact that it's is virtually impossible to reconcile the theory with our actual experience is a big reason to reject it. How can you just pretend that the passage of time is an illusion?

Philosophers of time are divided with respect to this theory and there isn't real a concensus on which theory of time is correct. The folks who really praise this theory are not philosophers but physicists who find that it fits nicely with the discovery of special relativity. A lot of these people, however, are (as is unfortunately common in the science community) in the "shut up and calculate" camp. That is to say they don't bother themselves with the logical or philosophical implications their theories may hold but simply focus on whether they fits the established formulas.

Very often these same people will show their scientism and positivism and use them to hand-wave the serious philosophical problems that arise from their theories. I'd say before you start worrying about refuting eternalism (or any theory for that matter) ask that the proponents of that theory give you a good reason for actually thinking it is true. They have the burden of proof to show it is and until they've done some real work on that issue the ball will remain in their court.

 

[viole]

In the theory of eternalism the past, the present, and the future all exist within the universe at different spatio-temporal locations. One's life would be like a book in a sense. You may perceive yourself to be reading one page (conscious at one point), but the past and future events of your life are still contained within the book on different pages.

This theory terrifies me in some ways. It seems to imply that while I can only perceive my present moment, there is a past self to which the past is present and a future self to which the future is present, and it seems to imply that even death itself is not an escape to suffering. My whole life is encased in the universe for all eternity. There will be a point at which I will die, and I will not be aware of future spatio-temporal locations after that, but a conscious self will still be present somewhere in the universe living this whole life.

Are there any philosophical ways of dealing with this problem?

This theory is difficult to escape, since it is de-facto the ontology of time that we get from relativity. Well, we have been knowing that time is not objective 100 years ago. My future is at the present of another observer and therefore it is fixed and cannot change without contradictions.
The only objections to the block Universe I hear is that it does not explain our psychology and intuitions, as if our intuitions were reliable.

This theory has the advantage of destroying all cosmological arguments of the Kalam type, since it totally expels the concept of change, begin, end, or causes when applied to the universe itself. The universe is a 4-dimensional block punctuated with events all existing, and as such it is eternal and unchanging. This fact also gives the coup the grace to non-determinism.

As concerns your worry to suffer eternally, I would not give it too much importance. After all, the experience is also an event, and as such it is unique. That tooth ache of mine caused an experience of pain that is experienced once. True, there is a point in spacetime where that experience is located (eternally), but that does not entail that my pain experience stretches forever.

I mean, since I did not feel unconfortable 1 million years ago, despite my tooth ache experience located somewhere in the far future, I expect to feel no inconvenience in locations of spacetime that correspond to 1 million years from now.


Ciao

- viole

 

[Twilight Hue]

In the theory of eternalism the past, the present, and the future all exist within the universe at different spatio-temporal locations. One's life would be like a book in a sense. You may perceive yourself to be reading one page (conscious at one point), but the past and future events of your life are still contained within the book on different pages.

This idea terrifies me in some ways. It seems to imply that while I can only perceive my present moment, there is a past self to which the past is present and a future self to which the future is present, and it seems to imply that even death itself is not an escape to suffering. My whole life is encased in the universe for all eternity. There will be a point at which I will die, and I will not be aware of future spatio-temporal locations after that, but a conscious self will still be present somewhere in the universe living this whole life.

Are there any philosophical ways of dealing with this problem?

It happens quite naturally when the thought passes.

Like reaching the end of an epic novel but only recounting bits and pieces of the beginning as it plays out to the end.

I like the metaphor of the book although I don't think it's as static as the words contained within for as long as the book is there . I think life operates something like that. ;0)

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think the mind sticks as well when it comes to eternalism. There's that tendency where we get beholden over a static perspective and stay with it for one reason or another.


If there's no beginning and no end. How do you even get to the point where we're at now?

 

[Willamena]

Are there any philosophical ways of dealing with this problem?

Eternalism, as you've described it, is an aspect of fatalistic determinism. While Eternalism encases you in a fixed universe-box, living in the present frees you to be the whole unlimited universe.

The 'self' is nothing more than our memories of things that this body has done, thought, and felt. It changes from moment to moment, never quite the same because it grows with each experience and each thought. That means that you, as the sum of your memories, are a Theseus' ship, never quite the same person from moment to moment.

The past is gone, existing alongside 'self' only in memory, and the future is not yet actual. Only the present is real. Ontologically speaking, that flattens the fixed box of the universe onto a plane, where the whole universe 'rides' alongside you as it all marches through time. Then there is only the problem of introducing time onto the plane, so that nothing 'rides.' The real trick of living in the present, though, is to reduce that plane to one spatial-temporal spot, and then realize that that spot is 'not' what you thought it was.

Edit: What's frightening about the article is the idea of creating an ontology out of a mathematical equation (entropy).

 

[EverChanging]

Eternalism, as you've described it, is an aspect of fatalistic determinism. While Eternalism encases you in a fixed universe-box, living in the present frees you to be the whole unlimited universe.

The 'self' is nothing more than our memories of things that this body has done, thought, and felt. It changes from moment to moment, never quite the same because it grows with each experience and each thought. That means that you, as the sum of your memories, are a Theseus' ship, never quite the same person from moment to moment.

The past is gone, existing alongside 'self' only in memory, and the future is not yet actual. Only the present is real. Ontologically speaking, that flattens the fixed box of the universe onto a plane, where the whole universe 'rides' alongside you as it all marches through time. Then there is only the problem of introducing time onto the plane, so that nothing 'rides.' The real trick of living in the present, though, is to reduce that plane to one spatial-temporal spot, and then realize that that spot is 'not' what you thought it was.

Edit: What's frightening about the article is the idea of creating an ontology out of a mathematical equation (entropy).

When you say the past and future are not actual do you adhere to a different theory that you reconcile with the theory of relativity or are you merely basing this on perception and intuition?

 

[Willamena]

When you say the past and future are not actual do you adhere to a different theory that you reconcile with the theory of relativity or are you merely basing this on perception and intuition?

The past exists in memory. The future hasn't yet occurred. I base it on common sense.

 

[Ponder This]

In the theory of eternalism the past, the present, and the future all exist within the universe at different spatio-temporal locations. One's life would be like a book in a sense. You may perceive yourself to be reading one page (conscious at one point), but the past and future events of your life are still contained within the book on different pages.

This idea terrifies me in some ways. It seems to imply that while I can only perceive my present moment, there is a past self to which the past is present and a future self to which the future is present, and it seems to imply that even death itself is not an escape to suffering. My whole life is encased in the universe for all eternity. There will be a point at which I will die, and I will not be aware of future spatio-temporal locations after that, but a conscious self will still be present somewhere in the universe living this whole life.

Are there any philosophical ways of dealing with this problem?

What exactly is the problem? If time is an illusion, then nothing is actually 'happening' and nothing is actually 'suffering'. If time is real, then why remain attached to impermanent things that you imagine to be your 'self' but are not actually who you are...

 

[Twilight Hue]

....... If time is an illusion, then nothing is actually 'happening' .....
.

I tend to think about it this way. Generally working 8 hour day sometimes it seems longer sometimes it seems shorter. Time is just a yard stick that is used to measure process or lack thereof because our perceptions are unreliable. It doesn't really exist in a natural sense because there's no real beginning or end point to even begin to get a bearing So it remains at an ever present "now"