Epicurean Paradox and my Faith

[epronovost]

That paradox is so old, one has to wonder why nobody solved it yet or if it even is solvable.
Only that it has been solved. Thomas Aquinas was aware of Epicurus' paradox and others. Therefore he defined omnipotence as "maximal greatness". The Thomists god can't break logic and that is official doctrine of the RCC. But it is not something that is widely proclaimed to the laity.
Most people hate logic because they are bad at it. And a god that can break logic is just better.

Actually, Thomas Aquinas didn't solve the problem of evil with his argument of "maximal greatness". The first reason why is because the argument of "maximal greatness" is self contradictory (if you can imagine something that breaks logic you have imagined somethng greater than his God and thus his God isn't maximally great). Second, it imposes a limit on God's power making it not omnipotent. Aquinas fell face first into one of its trap/ pre-prepared exit. He didn't manage to harmonise a omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent deity with the existence of evil.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Then God isn't omnipotent nor omniscient. If you can do anythin and know everything you, by definition, cannot make any mistake ever.

Or... it could be the Universe's fault that the trees weren't made correctly.

 

[Heyo]

(if you can imagine something that breaks logic you have imagined somethng greater than his God and thus his God isn't maximally great)

My imagination isn't that strong.

 

[epronovost]

My imagination isn't that strong.

Is your imagination maximally strong though?

 

[Quetzal]

Jumping to the part of "Then why is there Evil," we can make our own choices just like God but He can still know what we will do. Satan is part of God's plan to provide opposition. When God created the Universe, even God made mistakes. For instance, "the fruit tree yielding fruit" meant that the tree should have fruit bark, but instead God got a "tree yielding fruit."

Are there choices in the afterlife as described in Christianity?

 

[epronovost]

Or... it could be the Universe's fault that the trees weren't made correctly.

The problem with ultimate power and knowledge is that it makes you ultimately responsible for everything, including what other things do with their limited power and knowledge.

 

[Quetzal]

There are lots of good arguments for atheism, but this is actually a pretty bad one. It's easy to get around it logically simply by stating that whatever happens in the universe is what God wants.

In which case, I believe it can be forgiven if people choose not to follow a God that not only allowed but wanted genocide to occur.

 

[Heyo]

Is your imagination maximally strong though?

No, I just can't stop to think rational.

 

[Quetzal]

Interesting post. But let me ask you a question. If evil is a result of freewill, how could freewill exist without evil?

I don't know. This brings another interesting question to mind. If there is a paradise afterlife, as so many theists claim, are there choices there? After all, would it not be free of evil?

 

[Quetzal]

PS: Thank you everyone for your insightful questions and ideas! <3

 

[firedragon]

I don't know. This brings another interesting question to mind. If there is a paradise afterlife, as so many theists claim, are there choices there? After all, would it not be free of evil?

Well, that's a pertinent question to question your OP. Because your OP about the so called dilemma of Epicurus which actually doesnt have a proper source leading to him, by default assumes that God can create freewill without evil.

Thats why I asked you this question. You wish to take a rational approach, that's fine, but take it and play it through. How could free will exist without evil if evil is a cause of freewill? Do you understand?

 

[firedragon]

If there is a paradise afterlife, as so many theists claim, are there choices there? After all, would it not be free of evil?

No one knows what this "paradise" is gonna be. All you can see are text that speaks of nice things. Like things that appeal to your bliss. But what is it? No one knows. So you could only make a lot of assumptions. Does it contain evil, does it contain snakes that could bite you, does it have air to breathe, will it have a mother to experience mothers love etc.

One could go on asking many questions about something when they want to. But the main question to your OP is, how could free will exist without evil in this world if one is the cause of the other? I am sure you understand the question.

 

[robocop (actually)]

The problem with ultimate power and knowledge is that it makes you ultimately responsible for everything, including what other things do with their limited power and knowledge.

In Judaism, God creates perfect and imperfect things to fill the space of potential creation fully. That in itself is part of being perfect.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Are there choices in the afterlife as described in Christianity?

In my religion, yes. You can become Gods under God.

 

[Nakosis]

When I was in college, I was very close to attending seminary. But this paradox destroyed my faith and I have yet to recover it. I know this is an oversimplification, but I can't get past it. I wanted to share to get some thoughts from others and how to approach these questions/conclusions. Here is a diagram that is pretty close to how I approach these questions:

If God is all-powerful then nothing that happens while we experience life has any consequences.
Whatever happens, God could alter completely as if it never happened. Anyone can act as evil as they want and God could make it all vanish as if it never happened.

So evil does exist, at least our perception of evil. However, the existence of evil has no consequence because God is all-powerful.
That evil exists at all can only be for the sake of entertainment. Our entertainment/God's entertainment.

Why would we want to be entertained by evil? Why do folks go watch scary movies? The thrill, the rush, the fear. We are junkies when it comes to feelings. Even those we consider bad. If we don't have enough fear in our life, we go to the movies.

Evil exists because we want it to exist. Can't get upset at God for giving us what we want. The rollercoaster of feelings that comes with living.

 

[Fool]

It seems to me you've anthropomorphized evil. It "maintains an illusion" and an "ego /identity," and even the potential for "awareness." Seems invented out of whole cloth to me.

what seems is nothing but a belief that consciousness is only human. it isn't

 

[Fool]

You haven't answered any of the questions I presented you.

then please requery

 

[epronovost]

That in itself is part of being perfect.

Why and how?

Plus, if your God creates imperfect things, he is responsible for them. In judaism, God isn't good (nor is he exactly all knowing and all powerful either). The problem of evil is thus not really a problem for traditionnal Jews.

 

[PureX]

"Evil" is one side of a relative value assessment being made by we humans, and then being applied to our conception of "God". It assumes that "God" recognizes the same values as we do, and is therefor responsible for them (because "God" is presumed omniscient and omnipotent).

But the bottom line, here, is that this is ALL about our human conceptions of evil and God, and NOTHING about the actuality of evil, or God. So it's no wonder that the reasoning falls apart as soon as it's dissected and analyzed.

Is what we perceive as "evil" really evil?

Is what we perceive as "God" really God?

Is God really responsible for our cognitive predicament?

I strongly suspect that "no" is the most likely answer to all three of these questions. And if so, where does this leave us?

Unfortunately, we humans do not possess the knowledge of good and evil. As the story said, it was denied to us from the beginning. And what God has denied mankind couldn't steal. So what we took instead was a presumption of the knowledge of good and evil. A presumption based on our own needs and desires, not God's, or Creation's. And with this presumption we then have stood in judgment of all creation ever since. And have labored endlessly to "correct" it's shortcomings. And now, we even stand in judgment of God, Itself. And we find it all wanting, and lacking, and falling short of perfection, because it does not serve our needs and desires as we presume it should.

So my answer to this "problem of evil" paradox is that we never had the right to stand in judgment in the first place, because we have never really possessed the knowledge of good and evil that would be required to do so.

And it's time to humbly accept the reality of who and what we are, and of who and what WE ARE NOT.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Why and how?

Plus, if your God creates imperfect things, he is responsible for them. In judaism, God isn't good (nor is he exactly all knowing and all powerful either). The problem of evil is thus not really a problem for traditionnal Jews.

The wicked punish the wicked, it says in the Book of Mormon.