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Entitlements?

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Of late, I have been wondering where people got the idea that they deserve different things. There is a distinct entitlement mentality that has crept into the realm of accepted thought and I am curious where that thinking originated and where it leads.

Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?


I promise I won't be critical of what people may say here as I am genuinely interested in why people believe what they do and what kind of economic system/political system others think would serve mankind better than capitalism.

Here's your chance. Convince me.
 
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Tellurian

Active Member
Of late, I have been wondering where people got the idea that they deserve different things. There is a distinct entitlement mentality that has crept into the realm of accepted thought and I am curious where that thinking originated and where it leads.

Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?


I promise I won't be critical of what people may say here as I am genuinely interested in why people believe what they do and what kind of economic system/political system others think would serve mankind better than capitalism.

Here's your chance. Convince me.

The people of Scandinavia are rated as having the highest living conditions in the world, and they do have many of those entitlements that have been provided by their political systems of Democratic Socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
The people of Scandinavia are rated as having the highest living conditions in the world, and they do have many of those entitlements that have been provided by their political systems of Democratic Socialism.
Which doesn't answer my questions...
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?

One deserves only that which they've worked for...the fruit of their own labor. I don't subscribe to a belief system where one is entitled to a job, entitled to financial security, entitled to anything. Survival requires hard efforts.

I'm not confident that a system to ensure that all able-bodied people had employment would fly, because not all able-bodied people are willing to work. Further, I don't understand why any business, government or other establishment should be obligated in any way to provide opportunity to anyone outside the auspices of what's needed to accomplish goals.

It would further justify apathy, in my opinion.

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

I believe that shelter is a basic need but not a basic right. I'm of the mindset that people should live according to their convictions, prioritizing their lives and work ethics so that they can provide for their needs.

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

The health care system in the US is a system of services to be rendered - a system of businesses. In order to receive medical care, I don't get bent out of shape that there is a price tag associated with medical services.

I don't feel that I have the right to medical care. I have the need for medical care, therefore I do what I must do to ensure that I have the insurance needed to cover medical expenses for my family.

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

I don't know what the hell a living wage is. Sounds fantastic. I doubt I'd qualify.

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Overall, my answer remains the same. I think that people deserve the opportunities that they work towards. I believe that education is important. I have no qualms with public education, nor do I have qualms with private education.

I'm not sure that I'm comfortable stating that people have the right to education, though. And I think it's taken for granted too often.
 
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Walkntune

Well-Known Member
One deserves only that which they've worked for...the fruit of their own labor. I don't subscribe to a belief system where one is entitled to a job, entitled to financial security, entitled to anything. Survival requires hard efforts.

I'm not confident that a system to ensure that all able-bodied people had employment would fly, because not all able-bodied people are willing to work. Further, I don't understand why any business, government or other establishment should be obligated in any way to provide opportunity to anyone outside the auspices of what's needed to accomplish goals.

It would further justify apathy, in my opinion.



I believe that shelter is a basic need but not a basic right. I'm of the mindset that people should live according to their convictions, prioritizing their lives and work ethics so that they can provide for their needs.



The health care system in the US is a system of services to be rendered - a system of businesses. In order to receive medical care, I don't get bent out of shape that there is a price tag associated with medical services.

I don't feel that I have the right to medical care. I have the need for medical care, therefore I do what I must do to ensure that I have the insurance needed to cover medical expenses for my family.



I don't know what the hell a living wage is. Sounds fantastic. I doubt I'd qualify.



Overall, my answer remains the same. I think that people deserve the opportunities that they work towards. I believe that education is important. I have no qualms with public education, nor do I have qualms with private education.

I'm not sure that I'm comfortable stating that people have the right to education, though. And I think it's taken for granted too often.
I agree with this.
 

Tellurian

Active Member
One deserves only that which they've worked for...the fruit of their own labor. I don't subscribe to a belief system where one is entitled to a job, entitled to financial security, entitled to anything. Survival requires hard efforts.

Are you saying that people who inherit wealth and do not do any work should have that money taken away from them so it can go to those who are working in order to obtain food, shelter, education, etc.?
 

lunamoth

Will to love
My answers are based on current day, USA society.
Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?
People are entitled to the opportunity for gainful employment to the best of their ability and skill levels.

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?
Yes, people deserve a home. Clean, basic shelter should be provided for all people.

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?
Yes, people are entitled to basic medical health-care services, but there is no 'free.' We all pay for this one way or another. The question not adequately addressed is whether we are doing this equitably.

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?
Well, they deserve a chance to work and they deserve a wage that will feed themselves and their families. One way or another we should not allow people to be homeless and hungry, especially if they are working.

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?
We all benefit from a more highly educated populace. Free education should be extended based on merit after high school. Public education through high school is not a 'basic human right,' but it makes sense in our society.

Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?
We are all connected. By helping each other we help ourselves as well.
 
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doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Do people deserve money that they did not earn but have access to because of the accidental circumstances of their birth? Or an education paid for by their parents? Or the privileges of economy, opportunity that come with circumstances of nationality or ethnicity? Or certain freedom from the legal consequences of acts that comes with the fortuity of being born into circles of heightened privilege? Do people deserve to maintain separate property apart from the holistic system that makes the very concept of property feasible? Is it a fantasy for dim bulbs to imagine that social reality doles out its benefits on the basis of who deserves it?

It's selective self-delusion and nothing more.

My only beef with what is passing as "conservatism" these days is its blatant hypocrisy. It wants groupthink and social structures to support and protect certain values, but not others. Which is why I find it vile and intellectually dishonest. If you disdain group identities, grow a pair and be an anarchist. Otherwise, understand that the social world is not actually made of isolated individual beings that stand alone as moral agents, and it was idiotic to ever think that it was.
 
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9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
Of late, I have been wondering where people got the idea that they deserve different things. There is a distinct entitlement mentality that has crept into the realm of accepted thought and I am curious where that thinking originated and where it leads.

Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?

People deserve to have a job that reflects their skills

It's a basic right if it's the only way they can earn money to survive

Communism gave it a shot. Not quite fair on the people who do work though.

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

They deserve a house. people need places to live.

Definitely

Without a house you don't really have a good way to shelter yourself from harsh weather. A tent is all good and dandy but not great in freezing weather.

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Yes

Yes

Without good medical the life expectancy will just drop again. We'll have a society where the rich and powerful have much higher life expectancy than the poor.

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Yes, unless we revert back to the stone age where money is less important.

only in modern society.

Without people are forced to beg for food, money etc. They lose all meaning to their life.

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

I think I'll sit on the fence for this one.

Education, yes. Free education see above.

Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?

Depends on societal morals. Of course you can't really force people to help others. Although it seems to be ingrained into us.

Seems subjective to me. I'd argue that people should if they can.

I'm a(n) eudaemonist

I promise I won't be critical of what people may say here as I am genuinely interested in why people believe what they do and what kind of economic system/political system others think would serve mankind better than capitalism.

Here's your chance. Convince me.

Overall I believe these should be basic rights as without them I can't see how a real happiness can be achieved.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
doppelgänger;2631281 said:
Do people deserve money that they did not earn but have access to because of the accidental circumstances of their birth? Or an education paid for by their parents? Or the privileges of economy, opportunity that come with circumstances of nationality or ethnicity? Or certain freedom from the legal consequences of acts that comes with the fortuity of being born into circles of heightened privilege? Do people deserve to maintain separate property apart from the holistic system that makes the very concept of property feasible? Is it a fantasy for dim bulbs to imagine that social reality doles out its benefits on the basis of who deserves it?

It's selective self-delusion and nothing more.

My only beef with what is passing as "conservatism" these days is its blatant hypocrisy. It wants groupthink and social structures to support and protect certain values, but not others. Which is why I find it vile and intellectually dishonest. If you disdain group identities, grow a pair and be an anarchist. Otherwise, understand that the social world is not actually made of isolated individual beings that stand alone as moral agents, and it was idiotic to ever think that it was.
Brandon, were you planning on answering my questions or are you content hyperventilating?
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Brandon, were you planning on answering my questions or are you content hyperventilating?
Never ceases to amaze me on those rare occasions when a high level of spiritual courage is combined with extraordinary degree of political cowardice.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
doppelgänger;2631321 said:
The questions are pointless and you know better than to ask them, Paulie.
"you know better than to ask them". What the hell is that supposed to mean?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
doppelgänger;2631327 said:
Never ceases to amaze me on those rare occasions when a high level of spiritual courage is combined with extraordinary degree of political cowardice.
Is this what it comes to, Brandon? We can't even discuss things in a reasonable fashion? Are these questions so taboo that examination of the premises behind them forbidden? If anything, I would hope, as I asked originally, that you would use the opportunity to elucidate and express why these things are so important. Do bear in mind that I have not said what I think about each and yet you condemn me for even asking.

Are you OK?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Humans are a social animal. They have survived for hundreds of thousands of years through cooperative behavior. Only absolute hermits have a right to complain they derive nothing from society and owe nothing to society.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Humans are a social animal. They have survived for hundreds of thousands of years through cooperative behavior. Only absolute hermits have a right to complain they derive nothing from society and owe nothing to society.
I tend to agree, but were you planning on answering any of the questions?
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?
All people need (or "deserve," whatever that means in this context) to have a job - otherwise, they are not doing anything productive for society. Of course, the thing about giving everyone a job is that there are only so many jobs that need doing - and that number is based on the demand for the products jobs produce, which is, of course, based on the jobs consumers have that give them income to buy these products. It's a rather circular system, and I'm not sure what I could do about it. In a capitalist system, unemployment is lowered when the marginal cost for businesses to hire more workers becomes less than the marginal benefit of hiring new workers - that is, when the supply of whatever is being produced is less than what is demanded.
Therefore, if we could find a way to raise demand, we could proportionally lower unemployment.

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

People deserve shelter. "Homes" is open to interpretation, and can mean either "a place to live" or "ownership of one's own building." Some, possibly many people cannot handle the latter, and logically it should be impossible for everyone to be a home-owner due to simple concerns of resources (like land area). Granted, I'm sort of biased since I don't really understand the appeal of living in your own personal "home." I'm personally a fan of the "arcology" idea.
Arcology - RationalWiki

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Absolutely. If we only heal people when it is profitable to do so, we will end up wasting more money than needed on it, not to mention the human suffering involved (unless we repeal the laws dictating that an emergency room MUST take in people, regardless of their ability to pay - in this case the problem would boil down to human suffering in the name of profit).
Of course, by "medical" I'm assuming you are referring to needed medical procedures, and not things like cosmetic surgery.

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Well, the way I see it, we have three options:
We give people a "living wage," aka, a minimum wage that is needed to sustain their survival, and compensate businesses for the loss if necessary.
We do not give people a living wage, but we still have to provide them with welfare so that they don't die. This can have the effect of making them reliant on being poor enough for welfare, preventing them from getting out of the situation.
We do not mandate a living wage, and people who's market wages are below their living wages will die.

Out of those, I find the first most appealing. The welfare thing is closer to what we do now, but if we're going to put taxpayer dollars to save lives, why not do it in a way that allows the person to improve their situation? If we give them welfare, they will be cut off if they make a certain amount of income, but the living wage will always be a minimum for them.

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Education, yes, possibly not a doctorate. Not everyone needs a doctorate, and if we try to make it so that everyone was able to get a doctorate, regardless of their academic ability, the degree would likely become worth significantly less than it is now (and as a result, newer degrees even higher than a doctorate would likely be invented).

Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?

This is generally something we should strive to do as human beings. In many cases, it is more effective to put our resources into the government in order to solve problems, rather than each of us going about our own way of solving problems.
It might not be a basic obligation, but it's necessary to at least some extent for society to survive.

I promise I won't be critical of what people may say here as I am genuinely interested in why people believe what they do and what kind of economic system/political system others think would serve mankind better than capitalism.

Here's your chance. Convince me.

In no particular order...
The problem with capitalism is that it requires constant expansion to work, and generally assumes that people act rationally.
The problem with socialism is that it requires people who would benefit from it to be rational enough to realize it would benefit them, and it also generally assumes that people act morally.
The problem with command economics is that it requires the planners to act both rationally and morally.
The problem with feudalism is that the lord is overcompensated for his job (military service, if that), and the peasants are undercompensated for their job (supporting the lord through agriculture) and unable to better themselves as people due to their feudal obligations to be peasants. Even if this could theoretically be alleviated by the lord being moral enough to give his peasants a decent life and not enrich himself at their expense, it is simply fundamentally unfair for one class of people to have economic opportunities that another class doesn't, simply because of their birthright.
The problem with subsidence economies is that few people can do more than provide food for themselves and their families, and as a result people are generally locked into a social class (although to be fair, this class is shared among all people). Further, a natural disaster could cause the death of the entire society.

I find problems in every system I can think of. In general, either people are required to be rational, people are required to be moral, or there is a defect inherent in the system itself (ie, the feudal class structure).
Therefore, I tend to focus more on social issues rather than economic issues, for neither of these problems can be compensated for without a good deal of social engineering.
We can encourage people to act rationally and morally, but we cannot make a system expand forever, and nor can we solve socioeconomic defects that are inherent in a system. As a result, since I figure it is possible to make people moral and rational, socialism is the system we should strive for (a command economy could also theoretically work, but it is easier, in my opinion, for a large group of people to know their own needs than for a small group of people to understand the needs of each and every large group they are responsible for).
 
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