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End Humanitarian Crisis w/Border Security Barrier!

Should a border wall be built to end migrant deaths?

  • Yes: A border wall is needed to save people's lives.

    Votes: 2 40.0%
  • No: The status quo of a dangerous open border is acceptable.

    Votes: 3 60.0%

  • Total voters
    5

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
1. We should object to the term "non-human persons, cause non-human animals aren't persons. Right?

It depends on your perspective, but there's no need to get into the nuances of proper environmental ethics here. I'll just say I'm an animist and leave it at that, as for folks like me, non-humans are absolutely persons from an ethical standpoint (that is, fully deserving of consideration).

2. A steel slated barrier structure would not impact wild life, cause wild life, unlike people, could squeeze through the openings of the steel barrier slats without getting stuck. Right?

For the species of concern, any barrier that could keep out humans would also keep out several non-humans. I'm entirely against any massive wall for that reason alone, and after adding in the impact on humans, it's a big, big, massive no. Building a border wall is not a humanitarian solution to the issue of species migrations, human or otherwise.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
It depends on your perspective, but there's no need to get into the nuances of proper environmental ethics here. I'll just say I'm an animist and leave it at that, as for folks like me, non-humans are absolutely persons from an ethical standpoint (that is, fully deserving of consideration).



For the species of concern, any barrier that could keep out humans would also keep out several non-humans. I'm entirely against any massive wall for that reason alone, and after adding in the impact on humans, it's a big, big, massive no. Building a border wall is not a humanitarian solution to the issue of species migrations, human or otherwise.

Seems to me, one of the differences between you and me is that I care more about the safety and well-being of humans than about non-human life.

The border wall between Hungary and Croatia has significantly reduced illegal immigration into Hungary from Croatia; so then, why don't you think something like that won't work as well here?

Hungarian border barrier - Wikipedia
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
A border patrol's job is safer and more effective with a see through border wall than with open terrain where would-be illegal aliens can freely roam, border patrols are in favor of an effective border security barrier. ...:)
I laughed when Trump said it and I gotta laugh when you say it. How silly.

I'm still not sure how this answers my question. Do you think drug cartels wander around the desert holding giant bags of heroine?
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
I laughed when Trump said it and I gotta laugh when you say it. How silly.

I'm still not sure how this answers my question. Do you think drug cartels wander around the desert holding giant bags of heroine?

An effective border security barrier along with better drug detection methods at legal port of entries would work well together at significantly slowing the flow of illegal drugs from Mexico into the U.S.

When Mexico drug lords see this big impenetrable wall, they are going to shriek and realize they can no longer simply have their drug carriers trek across the open border. Then, drug lords will attempt to traffic more of their concealed drugs through legal port of entries where drug smugglers could get caught by drug sniffing dogs or X-ray machines that could detect highly concealed narcotics.
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The border wall between Hungary and Croatia has significantly reduced illegal immigration into Hungary from Croatia; so then, why don't you think something like that won't work as well here?

Honestly, whether or not it would or wouldn't work is not relevant to me because I do not perceive immigration (illegal or otherwise) as a significant problem. There are various reasons for that, and I'm not sure it's important to go into it. This topic has been discussed at length around here already, and I don't have much to add beyond what has already been said aside from reminding people that it's not just humans that matter on this planet.

The main thing that would get me concerned about immigration is as it relates to broader ecological and environmental problems. Those, however, are complicated issues that are by no means solved by erecting a giant wall. Besides, I really do not understand why the far more obvious humanitarian solution is not spoken of more by these wall supporters. If you really want to stop an animal from migrating across a border, look at where they live. For humans, they migrate because the conditions where they live suck. It would be a far, far wiser and more humanitarian move to invest those billions directly into Mexico to help them where they live instead of locking down a darned border.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Drugs won't stop, there is too much money and corrupt officials involved in it but giving more funding and personnel may help stem the flow of drugs.

Mexico drug cartel's grip on politicians and police revealed in Texas court files | World news | The Guardian

Hunting down the drug lords and killing them wouldn't be a bad idea. Keep chopping the head off the snake each time it grows back.
Hmm???... I wonder how much a U.S -led military invasion of Honduras would cost compared with the cost of building an effective border security barrier at the U.S.-Mexico border.
The funny thing I find about the whole thing is did you narry find a peep regarding the Honduras government itself as to why their people are fleeing all the time and why they are not addressing it.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Hunting down the drug lords and killing them wouldn't be a bad idea. Keep chopping the head off the snake each time it grows back.

The funny thing I find about the whole thing is did you narry find a peep regarding the Honduras government itself as to why their people are fleeing all the time and why they are not addressing it.

Yeah, all those people living in those crap hole countries need to fix up all the messes in their own homeland now rather than them having the expectations of migrating to America where they end up relying on our nation's overly generous welfare benefits.
 
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Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Show me where Trump is advocating that.
Trump could initiate it with an executive order. But I haven't even heard him mention the possibility.
Did I miss something on this?
Tom

There are already laws on the books that prohibit employers from hiring illegal aliens.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
There are already laws on the books that prohibit employers from hiring illegal aliens.
But they aren't enforced with any regularity and Trump isn't willing to start, as far as I can tell.
He could start doing so with the stroke of a pen.
Why do you suppose he won't do so?
Tom
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
But they aren't enforced with any regularity and Trump isn't willing to start, as far as I can tell.
He could start doing so with the stroke of a pen.
Why do you suppose he won't do so?
Tom

Trump already has ICE cracking down against employers hiring illegal aliens. ...:)

 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We could more effectively control what happens at the border if we more effectively controlled what happens in the rest of the country.
Like prosecuting illegal employers of immigrants, as an example.

Did Trump mention that last night?
Tom
It's not an either or proposition, employers can be prosecuted for hiring illegal aliens as well as an effective border security barrier can be built to keep out the Mexicans, who have a ratio of murderers to non-murderers at three times as much as the non-Mexican ratio of murderers to non-murderers in America.
Most of the "illegals" aren't Drug dealers or murderers. Of the 23 US counties bordering Mexico, all but two have crime rates lower than similar sized counties in the rest of the country. For the country as a whole, crime rates among undocumented immigrants are lower than for the population as a whole.
The US State Department acknowledges there are no terrorists being apprehended at the border.

Most of these "invaders" aren't trying to sneak in, they're actually seeking out border patrol agents to turn themselves in and request asylum. They have a legal right to do this. But...they have to be on US soil to do so, and when border agents close the gates and refuse to see anyone, forcing crowds to sit outside for days without food or shelter, it's hardly surprising that some of them get frustrated enough to to walk up the road a way and try to rush the border.

Most undocumented residents got in legally and overstayed their visas.
Illegal border crossings are actually way down from what they were a few years ago, making one wonder how it was decided we had a "crisis" and "Invasion".

Years ago, before ICE and the border crackdown, we used to have ~one million migrant workers who would enter from Mexico seasonally, work, and then return. Today they're effectively stuck here, trying to keep a low profile (and not shoot anyone).

We also got a surge of Mexicans when NAFTA was enacted, flooding Mexico with American corn cheaper than Mexican farmers could produce it, bankrupting farmers and forcing many to seek work in the US to keep their families alive. These, too, are now locked in, and their families broken.

Today's migrants are mostly from Central America where -- largely thanks to America's efforts -- poverty and violent crime is rife, there's little government control and the streets are effectively run by American generated criminal gangs.

Maybe we should try to address the actual problems generating these 'caravans of invaders', rather than immure ourselves inside a Fortress America.

'Home of the Brave', indeed....
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Most of the "illegals" aren't Drug dealers or murderers. Of the 23 US counties bordering Mexico, all but two have crime rates lower than similar sized counties in the rest of the country. For the country as a whole, crime rates among undocumented immigrants are lower than for the population as a whole.

Most of these "invaders" aren't trying to sneak in, they're actually seeking out border patrol agents to turn themselves in and request asylum. They have a legal right to do this. But...they have to be on US soil to do so, and when border agents close the gates and refuse to see anyone, forcing crowds to sit outside for days without food or shelter, it's hardly surprising that some of them get frustrated enough to to walk up the road a way and try to rush the border.

Most undocumented residents got in legally and overstayed their visas.
Illegal border crossings are actually way down from what they were a few years ago, making one wonder how it was decided we had a "crisis" and "Invasion".

Years ago, before ICE and the border crackdown, we used to have ~one million migrant workers who would enter from Mexico seasonally, work, and then return. Today they're effectively stuck here, trying to keep a low profile (and not shoot anyone).

We also got a surge of Mexicans when NAFTA was enacted, flooding Mexico with American corn cheaper than Mexican farmers could produce it, bankrupting farmers and forcing many to seek work in the US to keep their families alive. These, too, are now locked in, and their families broken.

Today's migrants are mostly from Central America where -- largely thanks to America's efforts -- poverty and violent crime is rife, there's little government control and the streets are effectively run by American generated criminal gangs.

Maybe we should try to address the actual problems generating these 'caravans of invaders', rather than immure ourselves inside a Fortress America.

'Home of the Brave', indeed....

Fact....There are still a significant amount of Mexicans who have trespassed into America instead of being here from overstaying on their Visas. Fact ....The ratio of murderers to non-murders in the Mexican population is three times higher than the ratio of murderers to non-murderers in the overall American population.

Unless you or anybody else can present evidence that these violent Mexican or other illegal aliens change the nature of their violent behavior upon trespassing across the border into the U.S. from Mexico, I have good reason to remain believing the ratio of Mexican murderers to Mexican non-murderers is three times higher than the ratio of non-Mexican murderers to non-Mexican non-murderers in America.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, all those people living in those crap hole countries need to fix up all the messes in their own homeland now rather than them having the expectations of migrating to America where they end up relying on our nation's overly generous welfare benefits.
But it was American 'crap' dumped on these countries. We largely created the messes.
If I crapped all over your lawn, wouldn't you consider it only fair that I at least help clean up the mess?

As for welfare benefits, illegal immigrants pay more in various taxes and payroll deductions than they can ever hope to recover in benefits.
As a matter of fact, most economists believe the 'illegals' are an economic boon.
There are already laws on the books that prohibit employers from hiring illegal aliens.
But back in the '80s (1986?), in a union busting effort intended to benefit large corporate donors, Reagan stopped enforcing the laws on hiring non citizens. He also declared an amnesty for a million or so undocumented workers already in the country.

It worked. Union membership plummeted, along with wages and benefits in the agricultural, construction and meatpacking industries and, as expected.
Corporate donations to the GOP rolled in -- So did a lot of Mexicans willing to work cheap.
Wages remain stagnant. Employer prosecutions remain on hold.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Fact....There are still a significant amount of Mexicans who have trespassed into America instead of being here from overstaying on their Visas.
No-one's disputing that.
Fact ....The ratio of murderers to non-murders in the Mexican population is three times higher than the ratio of murderers to non-murderers in the overall American population.
That I'll dispute.
Sources, por favor?
Unless you or anybody else can present evidence that these violent Mexican or other illegal aliens change the nature of their violent behavior upon trespassing across the border into the U.S. from Mexico, I have good reason to remain believing the ratio of Mexican murderers to Mexican non-murderers is three times higher than the ratio of non-Mexican murderers to non-Mexican non-murderers in America.
Links, please.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Show me where Trump is advocating that.
Trump could initiate it with an executive order. But I haven't even heard him mention the possibility.
Did I miss something on this?
Tom
I think you did miss something: No executive order needed. I believe the laws are still on the books, just not being enforced.
 
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Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
But it was American 'crap' dumped on these countries. We largely created the messes.
If I crapped all over your lawn, wouldn't you consider it only fair that I at least help clean up the mess?

I actually have a large security fence around my yard to keep out unwanted intruders. ...:eek:
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The argument is only applicable to specific areas which can only support a wall for those areas. Parts of the border which are in or near communities do not carry such a risk. Areas of a specific environment but not any environment. Weak argument
 
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