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Economics: Eternal growth is impossible

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
We live in a world where our leaders make us believe that resources are unlimited and that the economic eternal growth is possible.

so, this laissez faire liberism promotes the autonomy of the marketplace.
But not because the state think that liberism is a good idea. This is due to the fact that the powerful élite -that controls world economy- corrupts politicians (and governors) through bribes on a daily basis.
so our governors betray us and our interests and we still pay them with our taxes-
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
what is the solution?
Controlling all the marketplace and preventing rich capitalists from becoming richer. They will be stopped. They will not be in the condition of controlling the marketplace any more.
because any marketplace will be controlled by a national authority.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Single digit interest rates....NO COMPOUNDING!

When I was younger, such was the standard.
Loan a hundred...get back a fixed known amount, with interest.

Now, the loan is worked against a calendar and the end is never in sight!

When first allowed, someone likely saw the end of our financial lifestyle but did not have the clout to make it unlawful.

By the time the rest of the world catches on it will be way too late.

Debt accumulated by time and compounded interest will eat every industrial nation.

BANKRUPTCY FOR ALL!
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Kill the corrupt. Death by Snu Snu..
Ouch! Broken pelvis!

Anyway, I wanted to point out that growth isn't entirely laissez faire,
since the US gov actively promotes growth. Granted, they aren't very
good at it, but they try.
Personally, I don't favor perpetual growth of population or the economy.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Ouch! Broken pelvis!

Anyway, I wanted to point out that growth isn't entirely laissez faire,
since the US gov actively promotes growth. Granted, they aren't very
good at it, but they try.
Personally, I don't favor perpetual growth of population or the economy.

Well the Chinese have attempted population control in more than one way.
Perhaps you've heard of the Great Cleansing?

I think we've all heard about the law of one child per couple....
and the neighborhood granny asking door to door about the cycle of the lady of the house?

Such things are not working for them!
They now have a class of people called 'untouchable'.
Beggars actually.
You don't touch....you don't help.

They can't support their own.

Our methods are different, but the results will end the same way.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think we've all heard about the law of one child per couple....
and the neighborhood granny asking door to door about the cycle of the lady of the house?

Yes. And Chinese people are a bit messy. Because ..do you know how many abortions the government promoted? maybe a million of abortions in 50 years
they could solve this by vasectomizing all men who had already had a child.

the world is not smart.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We live in a world where our leaders make us believe that resources are unlimited and that the economic eternal growth is possible.

It is. Unlikely in the extreme, as "eternal" and the end of proton decay (or the death of everything in the universe including black holes) is highly likely according to the standard model and there is no highly likely model in which humans can exist for eternity.

That's technical. For the short-term reality (and by short-term I mean millions of years), it is far, far more possible for "eternal growth". Any mathematical model of growth during any period of human existence would have failed utterly and in famous cases (in particular, that of Malthus)) have. This is because any model of growth requires taking into account variables such as sources for energy. Nobody could have anticipated that rare elements buried in the ground could generate vast amounts of energy the way that uranium did. The same was true for fossil fuels, before that steam, and all the way back to fire. Predictions of the end of humanity due to overconsumption and lack of resources depend upon our inability to transform what hadn't been resources into resources- a consistent trend for the last many thousand years.

The problem is that our tendency to survive by innovation can make us cocky. If research in complex/dynamical systems has taught us anything, it's that critical points can be just that: critical. The problem is we lack the modeling skills to determining the false critical points predicted for centuries from those that are all too real. More importantly, "conservation" and similar solutions can be just as dangerous.

Personally, I think the key is to find solutions not by politics or scientific analyses of economics, anthropology, etc., but by funding and testing innovative technology and doing so without putting up mostly ridiculous roadblocks to prevent 1/1,000,000 chances of something like a nuclear meltdown while spending billions on vehicular technologies that kill more every year than nuclear power has since its invention.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Personally, I think the key is to find solutions not by politics or scientific analyses of economics, anthropology, etc., but by funding and testing innovative technology and doing so without putting up mostly ridiculous roadblocks to prevent 1/1,000,000 chances of something like a nuclear meltdown while spending billions on vehicular technologies that kill more every year than nuclear power has since its invention.
Bingo. :beach:
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The problem is that our tendency to survive by innovation can make us cocky. If research in complex/dynamical systems has taught us anything, it's that critical points can be just that: critical. The problem is we lack the modeling skills to determining the false critical points predicted for centuries from those that are all too real. More importantly, "conservation" and similar solutions can be just as dangerous.

The more life becomes comfortable, the more the need of new inventions decreases.
Besides...people don't understand that if we want to keep living a comfortable life, we must reduce world population. Because our comfortable life implies a massive exploitation of resources.

And Malthus was right. We can produce billions of clothes, cars, smartphones...etc etc...but these are not edible things.
We live through food and drinkable water. And these are exhaustible resources
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We live through food and drinkable water. And these are exhaustible resources

We can currently create food using something much like 3D printers (it's more complicated than that, but for simplicity it the difference doesn't matter much). And Malthus was right: every species has a carrying capacity. The problem with analyses by those like Malthus is that carrying capacities for humans as well as many other species is dynamic, not constant. The simplest model for population growth is a differential equation that is or extends the basic logistic equation. The problem with such models is that they assume too many constants that have been shown to be false (and for humans in particular). Thousands and thousands of years ago we drastically increased our resources by growing food. More recently we have actually synthesized meat and for decades we have used increasingly sophisticated technology to recycle water.

At the same time, we pour pollutants into the atmosphere, ignore or manipulate science when it comes to climate change, dump toxins and worse into habitats without even a basic understanding of the wider cascading catastrophic effects, and so on.

However, our mainstream models for climate change have proven consistently incorrect. IPCC accounts ignore explanations which better explain changes. The risks of alternative energies have continually shown to be motivated by irrationality rather than mathematically and scientifically based assessments of risk.

All sides use scare as a tactic. All sides can, because there exist real threats, but scare tactics are never more than tactics. Answers are answers and can be shown to be so only through the sciences. Models which can't predict aren't reliable, and confirmation comes only when our models can predict what we find. Acting upon theories which we have only theoretical bases for and which can cause more damage isn't "precautionary". It's just idiotic.

But hey, what do I know? I'm constantly trying to find answers and never do, so were it left up to me we'd be continually confirming that Non-Euclidean geometry better describes any space-like and time-like coordinate system given a constant speed of light or that the mod square of a complex function represents something intrinsically related to all physical systems.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well the Chinese have attempted population control in more than one way.
Perhaps you've heard of the Great Cleansing?

I think we've all heard about the law of one child per couple....
and the neighborhood granny asking door to door about the cycle of the lady of the house?

Such things are not working for them!
They now have a class of people called 'untouchable'.
Beggars actually.
You don't touch....you don't help.

They can't support their own.

Our methods are different, but the results will end the same way.
I don't advocate the oppressive Chinese approach to population control.
But neither do I have a solution to propose.

"Untouchables" in China?
First I've heard of it.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can anyone translate what he said in 20 words or less?

Luckily, the software I used to automatically generate sufficiently technical sounding gibberish only works one way (according to the brochure). I typed in "is eternal growth possible" and that's what I got. I learned all about the software during a seminar I took: "How to hide the fact you don't know anything by spouting nonsensical jargon". Of course, I had to look up the definitions for jargon", "nonsensical", and "know" before I realized this seminar was definitely one for me.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I don't advocate the oppressive Chinese approach to population control.
But neither do I have a solution to propose.

"Untouchables" in China?
First I've heard of it.

Worked with a salesman who found a woman in China and proposed.
It took two years and a lot of paperwork to get her stateside.

During a visit in China...they were walking along.....and he gestured to a man in need on the pavement.

She forbid him to do anything.
She explained the situation.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I've heard one scientist (forgot the name...sorry)....

This Earth has sufficient chemistry for 9billion people.

We can overrun our resources and recycle.

We are not eternal.

I estimate the 9billion line will be crossed as I turn 85.

Wish me luck.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I've heard one scientist (forgot the name...sorry)....

This Earth has sufficient chemistry for 9billion people.

We can overrun our resources and recycle.

We are not eternal.

I estimate the 9billion line will be crossed as I turn 85.

Wish me luck.

well...I am still 28. I am absolutely sure that we will be 9 billions in less than 25 years.
so I think that we are in the deepest....
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Luckily, the software I used to automatically generate sufficiently technical sounding gibberish only works one way (according to the brochure). I typed in "is eternal growth possible" and that's what I got. I learned all about the software during a seminar I took: "How to hide the fact you don't know anything by spouting nonsensical jargon". Of course, I had to look up the definitions for jargon", "nonsensical", and "know" before I realized this seminar was definitely one for me.

Your thoughts on:

Doomsday argument - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please. :D
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member

Unfortunately, my thoughts here are tainted. If I came across the argument as such before another of perhaps two of my only luxury expenditures, I don't remember it. Part I of Paradoxes in Probability (SpringerBriefs in Philosophy) by Eckhardt is "Anthropic Fallacies" and the second chapter is "DOOMSDAY!", which has ensured I can never look at the argument without my previous biases resulting from a (highly recommended yet certainly unnecessary) purchase: "The Doomsday argument should be seen as a straightforward application of an uncontroversial theorem (Bayes’) to data produced from a highly questionable assumption (HR examined below). For this paradox and the next two, the fallacy is most easily traced in two stages: randomness in reference class and retrocausality."

The author wrote a paper published in Journal of Philosophy I managed to dig up here: A shooting-room view of doomsday, but I haven't read it (as an excuse I plead the possession of his chapter in his book which post-dates it). The wiki article does a decent job could use some cleaning up, but does a decent job of presenting the argument(s) and counters. A particular area of contentious is liable to be missed, at least in its relative importance compared to any singular an concise formulation: the dependence on a one's birth being a randomly distributed discrete variable (in the probability theory sense). Eckhardt concisely states what I would probably take a post to write so I'll simply quote his statement of one inherent fallacy: "We can validly consider our birth rank as generated by random or equiprobable sampling from the collection of all persons who ever live."

Apart from the entirety of evolutionary theory and in particular that of humans (not to mention choosing the "random" reference class to be "humans" rather than "primates" or "animals" which leads to yet another flaw), we start from a position that most Bayesians (or any who use probability for e.g., machine learning, pattern recognition, classification & clustering, etc.) would idiomatically call a hypothesis. The easiest example I can think of to illustrate is suggestions on Netflix or Amazon. Learning algorithms that are designed to "learn" your preferences for movies/books/CDs/etc. based on previous selections have to begin with the first you make. They take this selection, perform whatever your algorithm dictates, and spit out an estimate that is called a "hypothesis", which is just another way of saying it is the current (hopefully) ideal state given the input to predict future actions AND (initially far more importantly) to UPDATE given more information (more purchases, in this example).

The Doomsday Argument relies on this valid inferential process but rather than an initial hypothesis it spits out a model, fully-formed. It's the difference between Amazon making a guess about your interests based on your first purchase or first few purchases and making a guess about next weeks lottery numbers based upon the numbers you have.

Machine learning and related uses of probability theory and statistical learning/inference generally start where the argument does: assume everything is distributed randomly (in this case, any particular person can be considered as identical in terms of "rank order" of birth among a total population of humans. Here things like the law of large numbers come into play but not well. Select a very large number of total humans like a 100 trillion, assume that births are randomly distributed, and you'll find that given the number of births already extinction is always a lot more probable than one would perhaps suppose. In particular, if we used past estimates of human extinction (at least those based on some sort of model that didn't come down to Jesus' return or a Mayan calendar), and calculated the total number of humans ever born by the time that estimation failed, compared it to another, we'd have evidence against the heart of the Doomsday argument (random distribution). Alternatively, if we took these estimates and then calculated birth rates after them, we'd find that the proportionality between humans born prior to estimated extinction and those when humans were supposed to be extinct, then compared both to the number of humans born after humans were predicted to be extinct, we'd find that assuming random distribution of the total N doesn't just mean a failed prediction but that the proportionality compared to subsequent growth indicates a distribution not only non-random but weighted towards later time periods without any indication of placement along a subsequent predicted total N.

Interestingly, the very arguments for some doomsday predictions (not the argument), from nuclear holocaust to climate change spelling the end of humanity, are arguments against the Doomsday Argument. This is because the DA starts from the position of a total N that is either random, based on an estimation of species in general, or based upon current models of human population growth. However, by most current models of human population growth (and its limits), humans would have died over 100,000 years ago. Likewise, if a doomsday event occurred, it is at least somewhat independent of the total N and thus birth rank isn't randomly distributed.

There is also, as mentioned above, the arbitrary selection of our randomness as humans rather than other classes to which we belong. If the logic of the DA is sound, then there is no reason we should not be able to use it to refer to our "random" birth rank amongst all those with a frontal cortex, all those with neurons, all mammals, etc. The selection of the class assumed to be random is misleadingly arbitrary. There is no a priori reason that it should be true that of the total N of all humans any human X should be distributed randomly (and uniformly), but of the total N of all mammals any mammal X (including a human) should not as well. However, we actually CAN compare population growths and extinctions in references classes to which we belong and we find that they do not hold true of us. Thus either there is something special to humans according to which we must restrict the reference class to humans for the DA to hold true, in which case the DA is false because it assumes no such special considerations exist, or there is no such reason to restrict the reference class to humans, in which case the DA is weakened empirically.

The problems, though, don't end with why this or that N might be appropriate and the distribution of the appropriate reference class given that N. Despite the centrality to Bayesian reasoning to the argument, another line of the same reasoning illustrates yet another problem. I know that there had to have been a certain number of people born in order for me to be. Given any N of total humans that will ever be born, in order to place myself in any birth rank or "location" along the distribution of births from this N, I have to assume something of the distribution of unborn generations. In doing so, I have assumed DOOMSDAY and thus used my conclusion to reach my conclusion. This too relates to doomsday scenarios that counter the argument. Given human extinction from an asteroid collision in a century my birth rank is Xn. If climate change kills all humans in 50 years, though, my birth rank is less than Xn. Whenever and whatever happens in order for humans to become extinct, I am relying on these future events to determine my rank now, and thus I am tacitly or implicitly admitting that future events are causing past events (namely, my birth rank and everybody else who is living or has lived).
 
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