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Early American History was Intertwined with Faith

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by KenS, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. Kuzcotopia

    Kuzcotopia If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.

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    How so? You may need to take a little time to explain. I am not impressed by the smiley face emoji as an explanation.

    I'll show you:

    Sasquaches are real. :D

    See? Doesn't do much for the argument.
     
  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Sounds more and more like Donald Trump with every post.
     
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  3. Aldrnari

    Aldrnari Active Member

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    Aye, and non Christians be damned. Up here in the NW native Americans were subject to Christian "boarding schools" where their language, religion, stories, and culture were systematically erased. All that remains now are ghosts of a rich and prolific history.

    This seems to be a common theme in christian history, from ancient times to modern day...
     
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  4. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    So two very different things here. Jefferson's view and Marcion's view don't coincide. Marcion, in the 2nd Century, believed that the God of the OT was a different God from what Jesus and Paul taught. Marcion was basically a polytheist. One who took Jesus and Paul out of their Jewish context. However, we have no idea what was in Marcion's Gospel as we don't have it.

    With Jefferson, he had no problem with the Jews. The portions of the Gospel he kept are Jewish thoughts. Rabbi Nuesner states that what's left are Torah teachings. And he wasn't really gnostic at all.

    More so, there is no evidence for your claim. Again, Jefferson recorded his reasons. None of them had to do with not liking the influence the Jews had on the Gospels.
     
  5. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Evidence or not, I can only go on what's available in print.

    "He proposes beginning with a review of the morals of the ancient philosophers, moving on to the "deism and ethics of the Jews", and concluding with the "principles of a pure deism" taught by Jesus, "omitting the question of his deity". Jefferson explains that he does not have the time, and urges the task on Priestley as the person best equipped to accomplish it." - WIKI

    Wiki goes on to say that Jefferson took a scalpel to the Canon gospels, which is the same thing Marcion did with Luke.

    Persoanlly, I really don't care as deism was a popular 17th 18th century belief system. It just appears ironic, that Jefferson, in some ways, was more concerned with the added content of the orthodox, though he clearly didn't care for Paul. Attorneys need to focus on physical law, and leave the spiritual alone, IMO.
     
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I acknowledge that Christianity played role in the philosophy and beliefs of the founding fathers, but the sources that emphasis too much Christian Theism as the dominant influence on the founding fathers neglect the very strong influence of Renaissance Humanism on the founding fathers.

    From: http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/humanism.html

    "Humanism is the term generally applied to the predominant social philosophy and intellectual and literary currents of the period from 1400 to 1650. The return to favor of the pagan classics stimulated the philosophy of secularism, the appreciation of worldly pleasures, and above all intensified the assertion of personal independence and individual expression. Zeal for the classics was a result as well as a cause of the growing secular view of life. Expansion of trade, growth of prosperity and luxury, and widening social contacts generated interest in worldly pleasures, in spite of formal allegiance to ascetic Christian doctrine. Men thus affected -- the humanists -- welcomed classical writers who revealed similar social values and secular attitudes.

    Historians are pretty much agreed on the general outlines of those mental attitudes and scholarly interests which are assembled under the rubric of humanism. The most fundamental point of agreement is that the humanist mentality stood at a point midway between medieval supernaturalism and the modern scientific and critical attitude. Medievalists see humanism as the terminal product of the Middle Ages. Modern historians are perhaps more apt to view humanism as the germinal period of modernism."
     
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  7. tytlyf

    tytlyf The Mind Eye

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    Bingo. Many were secularists fleeing religious persecution to create their own secular society. And today we have secular America. Unfortunately, religious people are trying to take over our government and introduce religious law.
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Freedom of religion and secularism describe the same thing.

    And freedom from religion - i.e. the freedom not to have other people's religion imposed on you - is necessary for freedom of religion - i.e. the freedom to believe and worship as you please.
     
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  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    And many - e.g. the Puritans - were religious extremists fleeing what they saw as too permissive a society in order to make little oppressive theocracies in America. The federal government eventually said to them, effectively, "whoa, whoa - dial it back."
     
  10. tytlyf

    tytlyf The Mind Eye

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    I think the celebration of christmas was banned in certain areas back in the day. Have you noticed the decline of America once god has entered the scene? God on the money, pledge, etc. Very un-American.
     
  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    ... by other Christians, because they saw it Christmas celebrations as heretical according to their beliefs.

    There's no greater threat to religious freedom than a religious believer of a different persuasion who has the power to use the government to enforce what he believes. This is why secularism and freedom of religion go hand-in-hand.

    What do you mean by "decline of America?"

    And I think God has been "on the scene" in America for a very long time. Just look at all the states that have faith tests for public office on their books. These tests were made void by the 14th Amendment, but they still give us a reminder of past attitudes.
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    There is an interesting side note here: Declaring oneself openly Deist or heaven forbid atheist could result in political suicide, and possible prison even in the colonies. Things were not completely free in the colonies, though a few brave souls did like; Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen. Both lost any hope of a political career, were ridiculed even at the time of their death, and only 6 people attended the funeral of Thomas Paine.
     
  13. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I'm sorry... he attended the church.
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Like many of the 18th and 19th he was attendant of a church, but expressed Deist beliefs.
     
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Not all secularism translates as freedom 'of' religion. There are significant secular governments the tried to brutally enforce freedom 'from' religion.
     
  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Secularism is neutrality toward religion: no special treatment - positive or negative - based on a person’s religion. A government that tries to oppress religion or religious people is not neutral toward religion.
     
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  17. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I just saw an attorney group at a conference (one of many) that supports freedom of relgion. A two inch binder of cases, in just one year, that they had to fight is proof enough that freedom of religion and secularism are not the same thing.

    As one 5 year old was told "you can't pray over your food in school" and an elderly person in a rehab facifilty who had their food taken away because he prayed as they said "It is because of the separation of church and state, I would disagree with your position
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    This is your habit as in the past to assert undocumented anecdotal stories to support your agenda as with biased version of evolution/creation 'story' of a student in the past which was not accurate.

    Nonetheless I also disagree with @9-10ths_Penguin.
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    hardly undocumented... though I understand why you would think so. Are you even in the circle of those who have to fight for religious liberty?

    In as much as these are litigated cases, and there is a two inch binder for just one year, I will still stand on my premise.

    Lunch Lady Told 5 Year Old She Can’t Pray Before Eating… See What The Girl Said
    student-ordered-to-remove-cross-necklace-at-sonoma-state-university
    Senior citizens told they can't pray before meals
     
  20. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    - the situation you describe isn't secularism.
    - whatever actually happened, I don't trust you to describe it accurately.
     
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