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Early American History was Intertwined with Faith

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by KenS, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    What we might call "conventional Christian theology" wasn't very popular with the FF that signed our DoI and AoC.
     
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  3. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    It’s a shame most Americans don’t have the same faith our founders had.
    Especially the church. They should know better, but their fruit is poison.

    Matthew 23:23-28
    23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices-mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law-justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
     
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  4. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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  5. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Care to provide some examples?
     
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  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    "No, but it sounds good."

    .
     
    #6 Skwim, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
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  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    But we do know better, which is why our fruit is so sweet. :D

    Founders who remained practicing Christians. They retained a supernaturalist world view, a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and an adherence to the teachings of their denomination. These founders included
    Patrick Henry,
    John Jay,
    Samuel Adams
    Founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
    John Adams
    George Washington
    Benjamin Franklin
    James Monroe
    Founders who had left their Judeo-Christian heritages and become advocates of the Enlightenment religion of nature and reason called "Deism". These figures included
    Thomas Paine
    Ethan Allen​
    Source: Wikipedia


    .
     
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  8. Kuzcotopia

    Kuzcotopia If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.

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    Early American history was also intertwined with smallpox. . . do you want more of that?

    Things get better. We learn stuff.
     
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  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Indeed: things were pretty oppressive if you were a Christian that didn't belong to the denomination with power.

    When the United States was founded, you had Protestant places barring Catholics from voting and vice versa. A bit later than that, you even had the extermination order against the Mormons.

    Luckily, your country eventually came to its senses and realized that the best way to promote religion was to keep government secular. They realized that when you give one denomination the reins of power, they tend to use that power to persecute people who don't believe as they do... mostly Christians of competing denominations.
     
  10. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    David and Tim Barton? Really, Ken? All I can say to anyone reading this who hasn't drank the Barton's Kool-aid yet, Ken, is "buyer beware!"

    David and Tim Barton are New Apostolic Reformation Movement propagandists, not historians, and even legitimate Christian historians say the Bartons are not intellectually honest.

    [Source]

    [Source: "Dave Barton: Historian or Revisionist?"]

    [Source: Christian Research Network linked article]
     
  11. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    By the way, to answer the OP: In my opinion Christian historian Dr. Gregg Frazer's notion that at least many of the the American Founders (such as Washington) were neither Christians nor deists, but rather, somewhere in between ("theistic rationalists" as he says) sounds about right to me. Although I do think the evidence supports the notion that some of the key Founders were basically deists (albeit perhaps deists with some, but not necessarily all, Christian values) -- Franklin, for instance.
     
  12. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    I didn’t watch the whole thing. It’s an hour long, and there would be too much to cover anyway. What really stopped me though was that the very premise of the video is wrong. Hidden history? History historians don’t want you to know or are erasing? It’s simply not happening. The fact that their guest has a history book, which I’d assume is filled with hidden history, proves the notion wrong.

    American history has been revised. That’s because all history is revised as we learn more and find better sources. That’s really it. What this video does is ignore that basic fact and instead submits a conspiracy theory.
     
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  13. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Well said, and refreshingly true.
     
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  14. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    The famous "Jefferson's Bible" where he cut out portions and is promoted as "He didn't like the Bible". Fake news.

    1) He actually had two that were cut up for different reasons
    2) The one people quote, he had cut out those scriptures because of:

    On suggestion of a Scotland preacher who said "If you are going to reach the Indians, don't give them a Bible because they are going to read Leviticus etc". So what he did is cut out the portions of Jesus (like a red letter edition) and pasted them on another book to give it to a missionary so that he could use the teachings of Jesus to the Indians.

    The second cut up one was to make of compilations of morals for people to make government smaller by their changed lifestyles. (we could learn from that)
     
  15. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Well the evangelical movement didn't start with a theology course of proper theology and a clear concise understanding of much at all. It was a pentacostal moment called the great awakenings. Its not really understood, and any anyone who wants to delusionally project their personal confirmation bias onto that is to be avoided at all costs both, Inside the faith and outside the faith.
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Strawman.
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Another instance of fake news :D
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Nice try. If you can't fight the facts, destroy the vehicle that is bringing the info. This is so common now that it has no effects.
     
  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Not at all. Secularism is the best way to protect religious freedom and the American Founding Fathers knew it: protect Catholic freedom of religion by making sure Protestants couldn't use the government to persecute them. Protect Protestant freedom of religion by making sure Catholics can't use the government to persecute them.

    In a secular state, every religious group is free to worship as they see fit. In a theocracy, only one denomination flourishes and all the others are oppressed. The best givernment for healthy religion overall is secular government.
     
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  20. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Fake news isn’t a defense. It’s a cop out. Small pox was a real part of the US’s history, one that was devastating.
     
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