that is a really ****** comparison...
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Drugs and the Left Hand Path
- Thread starter 1137
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Not sure how. Explain why psychedelic experience are more important than other drug induced experiences when it all boils down to brain chemistry?
Well i completly disagree with comparing experiencing a trip with being a meth addicted. but what i was saying was comparing picking and choosing drugs to a christian picking and choosing bible passages. its not at all apt.
idk whats so great about sobriety its just a state cause by brain chemistry. a trip isn't an effect its an experience. its more the just brain chemistry. Its an out look, and experience a memory a though a new color. a break of walls.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
On the subject of makyo and clinging - I used psychedelics many years ago, and do not feel the need to continue using them. The occasional ganja cookie is nice for a music session. And modern legal nootropics are excellent - I regularly use aniracetam and noopept, occasionally piracetam if I want to enhance my communication skills or music performance.
Although I know that psychedelics are not necessary for human happiness, the assertions that (a) it is possible to achieve the same states without them and (2) that the states are merely hallucinatory are both rubbish.
Not only rubbish, but a peculiar 'each-way bet'. There are those here on RF who say that the states induced are merely unreliable delusion, and yet at the same time assert that they can achieve the same states naturally as if to say that they can achieve the same desirable state or insight. It doesn't take too much inspection to see the contradiction there. On the one hand they are saying the state is worthless, but also boasting that they can do it naturally ! Hmmm .... that sets off the BS alarm.
The fact of life is, all this stuff about 'seeing god' and the 'spiritual truths' which one may realise prove that these people are indeed clueless.
The primary value of the state is intimate perception of the subtle workings of one's own psyche.
Clearly all those who talk about LSD etc being about 'seeing god' and 'spiritual truths' were emotional hysterics who failed to penetrate the superficial layer of mental constructs to observe the underlying behaviour of their own personalities.
Those therapists who use psychedelics for intractable afflictions such as PTSD get this. Not everyone who uses psychedelia is 'stalking the holy cabbage'.
Most, if not all, of those who are making the argument against psychedelia seem to be in that deluded camp. Unfortunately, some who are enthusiasts also seem to be in that deluded camp.
Meh. The smart ones will work it out for themselves and leave all this spiritual mumbo-jumbo to the children who want to play games.
Although I know that psychedelics are not necessary for human happiness, the assertions that (a) it is possible to achieve the same states without them and (2) that the states are merely hallucinatory are both rubbish.
Not only rubbish, but a peculiar 'each-way bet'. There are those here on RF who say that the states induced are merely unreliable delusion, and yet at the same time assert that they can achieve the same states naturally as if to say that they can achieve the same desirable state or insight. It doesn't take too much inspection to see the contradiction there. On the one hand they are saying the state is worthless, but also boasting that they can do it naturally ! Hmmm .... that sets off the BS alarm.
The fact of life is, all this stuff about 'seeing god' and the 'spiritual truths' which one may realise prove that these people are indeed clueless.
The primary value of the state is intimate perception of the subtle workings of one's own psyche.
Clearly all those who talk about LSD etc being about 'seeing god' and 'spiritual truths' were emotional hysterics who failed to penetrate the superficial layer of mental constructs to observe the underlying behaviour of their own personalities.
Those therapists who use psychedelics for intractable afflictions such as PTSD get this. Not everyone who uses psychedelia is 'stalking the holy cabbage'.
Most, if not all, of those who are making the argument against psychedelia seem to be in that deluded camp. Unfortunately, some who are enthusiasts also seem to be in that deluded camp.
Meh. The smart ones will work it out for themselves and leave all this spiritual mumbo-jumbo to the children who want to play games.
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Oh you certainly won't get addicted to shrooms as you would meth. My question is why is the brain chemistry caused by something like meth less important? In my response to apophenia that made him run off in insults, I brought up that my addiction to pain medicine greatly changed my perception, positively in many ways. So what's the difference?
Why will a Christian use bible verses against gay marriage but ignore one's about not trimming your beard? Well, to validate their beliefs, what they care about being / want to be true. Same with validating psychedelic drug use, hell any drug use, to make it seem necessary and important. Over a year sober and I can still vindicate popping vicodin if I wished to.
great post particularly the part i quoted well said. I would add in its also an experience. and importantly a new way to experience the self.
maxfreakout
Active Member
Meth and the addictive drugs do not trigger intense religious/mystical experiences, psychedelic drugs (which are nonaddictive) produce such experiences in spades. Religious/mystical experiences are the central, primary subject matter of religion. Drug addiction is completely irrelevant to religion.
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Sobriety is just a state of brain chemistry sure, one that's not harming the body in most cases whereas shrooms literally poison your body. A trip is the effect of taking a drug, which is just brain chemistry changing. Everything you say here completely validates trying such things if you wish, but again the exact same thing can be said of heroin, cocain, morphine, etc.
Ever smoke pot and feel depressed once it's worn off? Your brain has to readjust. Why might a depressed person kill themselves after coming off ecstasy? Those example may vary in intensity for certain but the point remains. But to a guy with depression doing drugs to temporarily leave your state of mind is not a good idea. Better to learn to deal with it in your natural state of mind. Same with thinking outside the box, you can to so on your own, it's just much harder than taking drugs.
maxfreakout
Active Member
it cannot be said of cocaine or heroin that they trigger intense religious experiences. OTOH it is well established that psilocybe mushrooms (which are not poisonous and have no harmful effects on the body) and the other psychedelics commonly trigger intense religious experiences
Lol intense religious experience. Nothing more than a biased subjective interpretation of the experience being caused by your changed brain chemistry. Even so, I had a "religious experience" on morphine so your theory is disproven.
Listen, you only have to validate drug use to yourself, I don't care who uses drugs as long as nobody is getting drawn in without consent (like the pedestrian hit by a drunk driver). But for being a magical mind opener I see severe fundy like thought. Just something to ponder.
I will agree that psychedelics like LSD do allow one to experience the psyche on a completely different level, as I used to take LSD back ages ago. But if I were to have a perceived religious trip, I doubt I would asign any real meaning to it in the days after other than "wow that was a wild ride."
/Adramelek\
/Adramelek\
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apophenia
Well-Known Member
Indeed. There seems to be a dichotomy of unrealistic extremities being expressed in this thread. Total delusion vs religious illumination.
Seems to me that this dichotomy only reflects the views of the two extremists expressing their respective positions.
In all of my experience, both personal and observing hundreds of other people, 'religious experience' is not what happens - depending of course on what one might mean by that. Almost without exception, what actually happens is a considerable alteration in perspective, with moments of unexpected insights into the patterns which are the habitual patterns normally called the personality.
Only people who have some pre-existing obsession with religion have experiences which they would describe in those terms. That is not so surprising, given that psychedelics make the underlying psychological patterns more obvious.
More important ? That is a really sloppy question.
Different neurotransmitters have entirely different functions.
Given that, as you say, 'it all boils down to brain chemistry', it is to be expected that each kind of mental behavior is associated with specific neurotransmitters.
If you accept that 'it all boils down to brain chemistry', then you already have the clue as to why certain compounds may be related to significant insight. And PLEASE note that when I say insight, I do not mean religious mental constructs, I mean literally seeing the activity/content of one's mind. Sleeping and dreaming is controlled by brain chemistry. Alertness is related to brain chemistry, which is why the US airforce supplied pilots with dexamphetamine, and more recently has been testing the use of modafinil and related compounds. GABA related compounds relate to calmness and relaxation. Acetylcholine and vasopressin are involved with laying down and retrieving memories. Etc etc.
So is it so difficult to grasp that when there are repressed memories, or fixation on habitual cognitive patterns (for example) that there are neurochemical mechanisms involved ?
Research into ibogaine is relevant to this. I suggest you find out how the Babongo people of Africa use ibogaine. Reports of western users who have undergone the Babongo ceremony attest to the fact that the drug allows access to memories of early (childhood) behavior associated with shame. By making these memories accessible, and sharing them with the shamanic 'master of ceremonies', a great weight is lifted and the tripper reestablishes a sense of community belonging. This is only done once in a person's life (if required), and the Babongo say it allows the initiate to enter adulthood.
In our culture, this compound has been found very effective in overcoming addictions to heroin and methamphetamine.
This echos the work of Sigmund Freud. An often overlooked aspect of his work is that he used cocaine and gave it to his clients during psychoanalysis. Cocaine causes (among other things) a release of vasopressin, which is a hormone crucial to memory recall. There are documented cases of instant recovery from long-term amnesia after exposure to vasopressin. Freud's clinical work was all about recovering repressed memories which were associated with shame and distress (child sexual abuse), leading to psychosis.
The identification with habitual cognitive patterns is maintained neurochemically. Does this continue when you are dreaming ? Of course not. Your sense of identity is a neurochemical reality.
So, you are just muddying the waters with all this 'religious experience' stuff. It has little or no relationship to what actually happens. What actually happens is - by pathways not yet understood thanks to the global ban on research, the normal superficial identification with habitual behavior and cognitive processes is interrupted, which often leads to deep personal insights.
It can also lead to deep personal crisis, depending on how attached the person is to their established 'identity'.
It is this being 'above and beyond' normal identity which has caused the conflation of psychedelic states and eastern philosophy. This is quite possibly because the practice of insight meditation and pratyahara (withdrawal from the senses) may well involve the same chemical pathways.
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