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Drugs and the Left Hand Path
- Thread starter 1137
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maxfreakout
Active Member
This ^ contradicts the vast bulk of evidence about the religious/mystical effects of psychedelic drugs, such as the recent scientific study on psilocybin which concluded that: “Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance”. Psychedelic trip-reports commonly include mystical phenomena. Psychedelic drugs were renamed ‘entheogens’ (which means something along the lines of ‘revealing the inner God’
precisely because of their widely acknowledged capacity for triggering religious experiences (mystical altered states of consciousness).It is straightforward to define what a religious/mystical experience is, the study at Johns Hopkins used a questionnaire to identify these experiences in the participants. The following is a list of phenomena that are commonly associated with mystical experiences:
1. Unity - a sense of cosmic oneness
2. Transcendence of Time and Space
3. Deeply Felt Positive Mood
4. Sense of Sacredness
5. Noetic Quality - a feeling of insight or illumination
6. Paradocicality - A person may realize that he/she is experiencing, for example, "an identity of opposites," yet it seems to make sense at the time.
7. Alleged ineffability
8. Transiency - the experience passes
9. Persisting Positive Changes in Attitudes and Behavior
(Source: Pahnke, Walter. The Psychedelic Mystical Experience in the Human Encounter With Death)
Here you begin to introduce a false dichotomy: - ‘religious/mystical experiences’ vs ‘experiences involving considerable alteration in perspective, with moments of unexpected insights into the personality’
Why would you make this distinction? Does mystical experience have nothing to do with gaining insights? See number 5 in the list above: “5.Noetic Quality - a feeling of insight or illumination”
People very commonly describe their psychedelic experiences in ways that readily match up to the kinds of experiences that are considered “mystical”, such as your description of “unexpected insights”.
In terms of neurochemistry, drug-induced mystical experiences seem to be linked to serotonin chemistry, the psychedelic molecules such as LSD and psilocybin mimic the shape of serotonin, and plug into the brain’s serotonin receptors in place of serotonin. But the neurochemical description is a separate thing from the phenomenological description of the conscious effect of the drug, these 2 levels of description need to be carefully distinguished.
This ^ is another instance of false dichotomy: ‘religious experiences’ vs. ‘experiences of metacognitive insight/seeing the activity of one’s own mind’
Again why do you make this distinction? Why should religious experiences preclude the kinds of metacognitive dynamics that you acknowledge to come as standard from psychedelic drugs?
This ^ contradicts the bulk of evidence (i.e. from trip reports) and scholarship, the connection between psychedelic drugs and religious/mystical experience is very well established.
There is no ‘global ban on research’, a huge amount of research is being done into these chemicals, for example the psilocybin study at Johns Hopkins mentioned above which concluded that psilocybin causes mystical experiences. That study was reported in the press all over the world, while drug-prohibition may have slowed down psychedelic research in some ways, that is certainly not a “global ban”.
again you use this false dichotomy, ‘religious/mystical experience’ vs. ‘deep personal insights’
what is this distinction based on? Why should a religious/mystical experience specifically not include deep personal insights?
Another false dichotomy: ‘religious experiences’ vs ‘deep personal crisis’
Religious experiences commonly involve deep personal crises. Many of the central stories in religious scriptures involve a person undergoing a ‘holy crisis’, for example think of Abraham’s experience of being suddenly commanded by God to sacrifice his only son – this is clearly an experience of profound personal crisis. So why do you distinguish between religious experiences, and experiences of personal crisis? Perhaps these categories overlap?
It is ironic that you mention this, because the main writer who conflated psychedelic states with Eastern philosophy was Alan Watts, who also wrote extensively about how LSD triggers religious experiences, were you aware of that?
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apophenia
Well-Known Member
I'll get around to answering max in a while, but first this ^
How many people have you heard claim that they actually 'melded with a deity' ( in the sense of an objectively existing entity) ? Fact is, the only people I have heard make this claim in the sense that you are implying ( i.e. including a belief that the deity is 'real') are LHP practitioners and some hindus, and they were generally not using psychedelics. Except the natural biological psychedelics they generated in their endocrine system - which are identical to those triggered by psychedelics. The notable difference - when people have this experience on psychedelics, they learn the lesson that the mind can easily produce such visions.
If they were to follow the advice of Robert Anton Wilson and Dr John Lilly, they would practice having visions in a wide variety of forms, and thus free themselves from the attachment to a specific set of internal symbols (i.e. Jesus or Krishna or Satan or Mescalito or Machine Elves or WHATEVER).
There are a (very) few tripstas out there who are naive enough to believe that such visions are objective, but they are rare indeed. This is why churches and religious fundies don't like psychedelia - it 'lets the cat out of the bag'.
You are trying to refute a claim that is not made. If you want to discuss the place of psychedelia in the LHP, then discuss it. There are those of us who are prepared to discuss our experience, yet you are trying to maintain a discussion about experiences which people are not having, and claims they are not making.
Yes, people (including myself) have what are defined as 'mystical' experiences using the definition maxfreakout just supplied.
But 'religious' ? Merging with actual deities ? Usually if something like that happens, it is like Adramelek said earlier, you say to yourself later "Wow, that was amazing". But you are also aware that it is an expression of your mind, not an actual 'deity' or whatever.
In that respect, it is like the deity visualisations as taught by Tibetan buddhists. It is made explicit that what is seen is one's own mind.
When I was about 20 I had a mushroom experience in which Tathagata buddhas appeared and explained some crucial aspects of abhidharma. This is what prompted me to later study buddhism with lamas.You may get some benefit and understanding if you further study notions of 'archetypes' and the 'collective unconscious' - what the Tibetans call 'sem yid'. Try reading Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung for an introduction ... already have ? Then WTF are you on about ?
I became adept at 3D photorealistic visualisation with 'assistance'. I was actually shocked and delighted when I discovered that I could direct specific visions which were so realistic as to be indistinguishable from 'concensus reality'. I won't mention which compound was involved, out of respect for the spirit of Rule 6, but you might be surprised if you knew ...( it isn't usually considered 'psychedelic', more a performance enhancer).
When I was a bird flying over a river in the northern Australian desert, I was also aware that this was induced vision.
Surely you have had realistic dreams ? So you know that generating a visionary state is routine for a human being. And not insane ! It is part of a natural and necessary process which happens to you involuntarily every night.
It seems to me Doors, that you are attempting to define all psychedelic experience as delusion of the most extreme kind, and characterising those who have had visionary experiences as naive hysterics with no clue. If you read the responses you have received, you will realise that you are on your own. Most people are somewhat more enlightened than that.
You have a hammer in your hand, and you are having the hallucination that our replies are all the kind of nails you are wanting to hammer.
Last point for this post - those kind of experiences are just one aspect of what may happen. Even for psychedelic enthusiasts, such experiences are not the most typical.
Lol psychedelic experiences are delusions, but that doesn't mean you can't take something from them. Which I never said otherwise and I'm confused why you're so turned off that I'm not going shrooming. If you've never met people who've claimed that psychedelic experience cause objective spiritual change such as melding with a deity then you've either kept to biased sources or shut out what disagrees. There is no point in trying to debate with you because last time I gave arguments you threw a bunch of big "Lol"s and "Omg"s and ran away in ad hominem attacks like any good fundy.
Things like meditation may not be as easy as getting high, but they've also shown less negative effects (though experiences are possibly equally misinterpreted). Personal I'm finished with the thread, apparently it's just fundy bashing of this religion of psychedelics I didn't even know existed. I took what I needed from my trips and feel comfortable moving on.
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hey man i see two people acting like "fundies" and then several people in the middle between them.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
Doors, you began the ad hominem attacks. Admittedly I did respond with a few LOLs and OMGs - now I see that you were hoping for just that so you could claim the high moral ground and justify not answering real points ! And I clearly didn't run away. Wrong on both counts.
You consistently fail to answer the points I make, and make these accusations instead - as well as repeating the same statement over and over - "psychedelic experiences are delusions". Seems you have no idea how to answer real points, and no real points of your own to make.
Where did you get "you're so turned off that I'm not going shrooming." ? Pure invention. Delusion even.
You are projecting in a variety of ways.
Your own posts indicate to me that you possibly have unresolved issues about drugs (prescription opiates). Perhaps you started this thread so that you could project your anxiety about that and make yourself feel stronger in your resolve ? Good luck with that, but try not to do a J.Edgar Hoover. He had an opiate problem. The FBI was his camouflage.
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apophenia
Well-Known Member
So you got something you needed ?
There you go.
Almost everyone who has responded has said something similar, (and we have moved on).
You even had a "religious experience" on opiates. I hope that didn't cause you any confusion about what is real ...
Hmmm you could be onto something about unresolved issues but that was not a conscious intent behind the thread. I do wonder though if it's cause a confirmation bias based on the fact that obviously my addiction was harmful. Interesting point. Either way I really have little problem with your perspective, more this perspective shown by max here...
apophenia
Well-Known Member
Well, I appreciate your honesty, in so far as you are prepared to consider that as a possibly valid insight. And it is a rare thing for someone in a heated discussion on RF to take an idea like that on board. Respect.
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I could argue that intense meditative states aka trance-like states are just as psychedelic as drug induced ones without the impaired cognitive faculties. Though I would say it is probably easier to get there with the drugs considering that the larger part of achieving such a state is getting past the inhibiting mechanics of your own mental machinery. Still with dedicated practice you can get there without the drugs, and that being said one must weigh their own sloth vs the complications of imbibing the chemicals. Personally, I've just been at this so long I don't need them as a result I have a lot more money in my pocket.
maxfreakout
Active Member
This is a misunderstanding of what I am saying. In terms of Setianism, what I am actually saying is that in order to truly experience Xeper, you need to trip repeatedly. Xeper is nothing other than a reference to psychedelic tripping and the resulting psychological transformation. Repeatedly tripping and thus becoming acquainted with the psychedelic state of consciousness progressively reprograms the mind as it integrates/incorporates the new information that the psychedelic state reveals. This is why a trip can be an earth-shattering, life-changing experience. The mind is purified by repeatedly dissolution and re-coagulation, that is the true (esoteric) meaning of Xeper.
The psychedelic revelation is precisely the inverse of this ^. Psychedelics reveal the hallucinatory aspects of ordinary cognition; during a trip, the tangible physical world is experienced as distinctly less tangible and physical than it normally is, the solidity of the physical world is partially dissolved into fluid.
maxfreakout
Active Member
What exactly do you mean by "get there" in this context? What is "there"?
With these particular drugs, you can get repeatable controllable access to the intense psychedelic altered state, without drugs this is not possible by any other means.
Haha, this is great! I don't need to teach you how to meditate you can easily learn that on your own, and yes some of the effects are similar to those of taking said drugs without the complications or after effects. There is a reason all those hippie freaks were also into eastern mysticism and other things.
Best way to explain it to the unknowing -- imagine you blot out every thought and feeling, and all your surroundings; blank piece of paper. You keep staring at that paper and eventually things appear on it. Eventually those things have sounds, and smells. Later you and the paper become merged and you are there -- there is no longer a difference between you and it. You are no longer "seeing things", but "being things" for a lack of a better set of wording.
Certainly, you can feel free to look through millions of zen meditation books and whatever but my cliffs notes are easier to understand.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
LOL over the cliff notes.
"It's the exact opposite of staring into space !"
- Someone Who Both Is and Isn't Me
There are some ideas which max is expressing which are true. You won't ever be in a state like 400 mikes without 400 mikes. Never ever ever. That's that.
Same if you get to see bees. Or Special Kallisti. No way at all that anyone ever goes there naturally. Total ******** to assert otherwise.
However ...
When I was 15 I began practicing trance induction. I had read some books on self-hypnosis, and the technique of progressive relaxation (toes to top of head), and after school I would go to a secluded place by the river, lie on my back, and LET GO.
It was very psychedelic. The trees were breathing and morphing when I opened my eyes. There were patterns of lines and spheres in the sky. And entoptica, states of oceanic inner light etc.
I practiced that and chanting and various spontaneous experiments, like sitting in front of a mirror in candle light and watching my reflection take on strange appearances, for a few years before I ever used psychedelics.
So the assertion that psychedelic states are not accessible without drugs is simply not true. I was using my focused intention to affect my brain chemistry, and it worked just fine. Looking back on it, I would say that I was learning how to release endogenous DMT, endorphins and dopamine ( and who-knows -what-else ).
But there is a quantum leap from there to LSD-25 (or any one of many other majorly psychedelic compounds). Anyone who says they can reach a full-blown trip naturally is just not credible IMO. You can certainly tilt yourself a long way in that direction though, if you persevere in a skillful way.
Do you actually need to experience a full-blown trip ? No. The essential wisdom of value to a human being does not have psychedelia as a prerequisite IMO.
BTW maxfreakout - your idea that it is all about serotonin is a bit simplistic. You can swallow all the serotonin you like and you won't trip. A serotonin precursor like l-tryptophan will have mild mind-altering effects, but trivial. It is true that serotonin levels rise when you trip, but that is an effect, not a cause. Lots of things raise serotonin without psychedelia ( St John's Wort for example, or modern SSRI anti-depressants). And lots of other neurochemicals are also affected by psychedelics (in different constellations depending on the compound).