Dogs know...

[Mock Turtle]

Then demonstrate it.

I did, right at the beginning - bad memory?

Elephants understand pointing, scientists show

"Most other animals do not point, nor do they understand pointing when others do it. Even our closest relatives, the great apes, typically fail to understand pointing when it's done for them by human carers; in contrast, the domestic dog, adapted to working with humans over many thousands of years and sometimes selectively bred to follow pointing, is able to follow human pointing – a skill the dogs probably learn from repeated, one-to-one interactions with their owners."

 

[Axe Elf]

"Most other animals do not point, nor do they understand pointing when others do it. Even our closest relatives, the great apes, typically fail to understand pointing when it's done for them by human carers; in contrast, the domestic dog, adapted to working with humans over many thousands of years and sometimes selectively bred to follow pointing, is able to follow human pointing – a skill the dogs probably learn from repeated, one-to-one interactions with their owners."

Because of that last sentence, this does not demonstrate your position at all.

Or do you really not understand that LEARNING how to follow human pointing is irrelevant to my claim that an untrained dog will just look at your hand when you point? No, you probably don't, do you...

Oh well, everyone else does.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Because of that last sentence, this does not demonstrate your position at all.

Or do you really not understand that LEARNING how to follow human pointing is irrelevant to my claim that an untrained dog will just look at your hand when you point? No, you probably don't, do you...

Oh well, everyone else does.

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh Got you rattled? Your statement - When you point at something you want a dog to see, they look at your finger.

But they don't - as mentioned by the article and numerous other instances, which I'm sure even a person of your limited capacity would find by a simple search. You didn't say 'my dog' or 'his dog' , you said 'dog' as in 'all dogs' or 'dogs in general', so not true.

 

[Axe Elf]

But they don't - as mentioned by the article and numerous other instances, which I'm sure even a person of your limited capacity would find by a simple search. You didn't say 'my dog' or 'his dog' , you said 'dog' as in 'all dogs' or 'dogs in general', so not true.

But they do. All untrained dogs. In general. Do.

 

[Mock Turtle]

But they do. All untrained dogs. In general. Do.

Well, even not being a dog-owner, I would disagree, since most of the dogs I have observed - in the park and elsewhere - seem to follow directions from their owner when the owner points at something - like a thrown ball or whatever - and that appears to be a characteristic that has evolved over the ages whilst in the company of humans. Sheepdogs in particular are probably very good at this, and others to varying degrees, perhaps associated with their intelligence - not sure. But the whole point is that this has been an evolved behaviour rather than what one particular owner teaches their dog. The fact is that few other species are capable of this - which, as I remarked is a bit of an anomaly, although our close association might just account for this entirely. Perhaps dog owners might chip in?

 

[Axe Elf]

Well, even not being a dog-owner, I would disagree, since most of the dogs I have observed - in the park and elsewhere - seem to follow directions from their owner when the owner points at something - like a thrown ball or whatever - and that appears to be a characteristic that has evolved over the ages whilst in the company of humans. Sheepdogs in particular are probably very good at this, and others to varying degrees, perhaps associated with their intelligence - not sure. But the whole point is that this has been an evolved behaviour rather than what one particular owner teaches their dog. The fact is that few other species are capable of this - which, as I remarked is a bit of an anomaly, although our close association might just account for this entirely. Perhaps dog owners might chip in?

Jeez, did you copy that word for word, or do you actually have a PhD in animal behavior?

Those same sources say that the characteristic that has evolved over the ages while in the company of humans is the potential to learn how to follow pointing to an object. Not that they do it automatically, but that they have developed the ability to be trained to do it, unlike other animals that can't even be trained to do so.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Jeez, did you copy that word for word, or do you actually have a PhD in animal behavior?

Those same sources say that the characteristic that has evolved over the ages while in the company of humans is the potential to learn how to follow pointing to an object. Not that they do it automatically, but that they have developed the ability to be trained to do it, unlike other animals that can't even be trained to do so.

As I said, I would like to get responses from dog-owners. I have no specialist knowledge here but it appears to have been acquired by a wide range of dog varieties.

You did seem to imply that all dogs just looked at a pointed finger.

PS That all came from my own sweet mind, no research required.

 

[Nous]

I have had seven decades to arrive at an understanding of reality.

The pride with which you extol your ignorance of the scientific evidence cited on this thread does not bespeak any "understanding of reality".

 

[Mock Turtle]

The pride with which you extol your ignorance of the scientific evidence cited on this thread does not bespeak any "understanding of reality".

Really? Is that the evidence you have provided or all other evidence too? You seem to think your views just cannot be wrong just as much as I can't accept them, but I'm not going to call you an ignorant oaf, even if you are one. That would be not acting honourably.

 

[Nous]

Society for Scientific Exploration - Wikipedia

I suppose if no credentialed scientific Institution at the University academic level recognizes it as a valid and recognized peer reviewed Journal , one might as well make up one on your own and "credential" it yourself. eh? ;0)

If you know of any evidence by which to dispute any of the following, please provide it:

The JSE is the quarterly, peer-reviewed journal of the SSE.

Associate Editors

• Carlos S. Alvarado, Ph.D.
  Parapsychology Foundation, New York, NY
  
  
• Imants Barušs, Ph.D.
  University of Western Ontario, Canada
  
  
• Daryl Bem, Ph.D.
  Cornell University, Ithaca, NY
  
  
• Robert Bobrow, Ph.D.
  Stony Brook University, Stony Brook, NY
  
  
• Courtney Brown, Ph.D.
  Emory University, Alanta, GA
  
  
• Etzel Cardeña, Ph.D.
  University of Lund, Lund, Sweden
  
  
• Jeremy Drake, Ph.D.
  Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge, MA
  
  
• Roger D. Nelson, Ph.D.
  Princeton University, Princeton, NJ
  
  
• Mark Rodeghier, Ph.D.
  Center for UFO Studies, Chicago, IL
  
  
• Daniel Sheehan, Ph.D.
  University of San Diego, San Diego, CA
  

Editorial Board

• Richard C. Henry, Ph.D. (Editorial Chair)
  Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD
  
  
• Mikel Aickin, Ph.D.
  University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
  
  
• Steven J. Dick, Ph.D.
  U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, DC
  
  
• Peter Fenwick, Ph.D.
  Institute of Psychiatry, London, UK
  
  
• Alan Gauld, Ph.D.
  University of Nottingham, UK
  
  
• Wayne B. Jonas, Ph.D.
  Samueli Institute, Alexandria, VA
  
  
• Michael Levin, Ph.D.
  Tufts University, Boston, MA
  
  
• David C. Pieri, Ph.D.
  Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
  
  
• Juan Roederer, Ph.D.
  University of Alaska–Fairbanks, AK
  
  
• Yervant Terzian, Ph.D.
  Cornell University, Ithaca, NY
  
  
• N. C. Wickramasinghe, Ph.D
  Churchill College, Cambridge, UK
  

Do you have better credentials that the associate editors or editorial board of the JSE?

 

[Nous]

Really? Is that the evidence you have provided or all other evidence too?

You're not able to figure out what evidence has been cited on this thread? Go back to my previous posts and click on the link to Sheldrake's study. The only intelligent and rational reason to reject his findings would be if his methodology were flawed in some way. Obviously you haven't identified any flaw in his methodology. Right?

 

[Mock Turtle]

You're not able to figure out what evidence has been cited on this thread? Go back to my previous posts and click on the link to Sheldrake's study. The only intelligent and rational reason to reject his findings would be if his methodology were flawed in some way. Obviously you haven't identified any flaw in his methodology. Right?

I know that bit. You seemed to imply I was incapable of assessing all evidence. My spat with AE concerned other evidence. I'm sorry, I'm not that bothered with Sheldrake. I'm sure I looked at this long ago, and, since it hasn't come up on my radar since, I assume no new evidence has come to light. I don't know why you are clinging to this. You might just be wrong. Ever considered that?

 

[Mock Turtle]

If you know of any evidence by which to dispute any of the following, please provide it:

The JSE is the quarterly, peer-reviewed journal of the SSE.

Associate Editors

• Carlos S. Alvarado, Ph.D.
  Parapsychology Foundation, New York, NY
  
  
• Imants Barušs, Ph.D.
  University of Western Ontario, Canada
  
  
• Daryl Bem, Ph.D.
  Cornell University, Ithaca, NY
  
  
• Robert Bobrow, Ph.D.
  Stony Brook University, Stony Brook, NY
  
  
• Courtney Brown, Ph.D.
  Emory University, Alanta, GA
  
  
• Etzel Cardeña, Ph.D.
  University of Lund, Lund, Sweden
  
  
• Jeremy Drake, Ph.D.
  Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge, MA
  
  
• Roger D. Nelson, Ph.D.
  Princeton University, Princeton, NJ
  
  
• Mark Rodeghier, Ph.D.
  Center for UFO Studies, Chicago, IL
  
  
• Daniel Sheehan, Ph.D.
  University of San Diego, San Diego, CA

Editorial Board

• Richard C. Henry, Ph.D. (Editorial Chair)
  Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD
  
  
• Mikel Aickin, Ph.D.
  University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
  
  
• Steven J. Dick, Ph.D.
  U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, DC
  
  
• Peter Fenwick, Ph.D.
  Institute of Psychiatry, London, UK
  
  
• Alan Gauld, Ph.D.
  University of Nottingham, UK
  
  
• Wayne B. Jonas, Ph.D.
  Samueli Institute, Alexandria, VA
  
  
• Michael Levin, Ph.D.
  Tufts University, Boston, MA
  
  
• David C. Pieri, Ph.D.
  Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
  
  
• Juan Roederer, Ph.D.
  University of Alaska–Fairbanks, AK
  
  
• Yervant Terzian, Ph.D.
  Cornell University, Ithaca, NY
  
  
• N. C. Wickramasinghe, Ph.D
  Churchill College, Cambridge, UK

Do you have better credentials that the associate editors or editorial board of the JSE?

You did look at the criticisms? I know of Daryl Bem - he's put out some theories but I don't think they have been verified, and it looks to be the case for many of the others according to the criticism - not that I know that since I don't know most of them. I recognise a few names though.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If you know of any evidence by which to dispute any of the following, please provide it:

The JSE is the quarterly, peer-reviewed journal of the SSE.

Associate Editors

• Carlos S. Alvarado, Ph.D.
  Parapsychology Foundation, New York, NY
  
  
• Imants Barušs, Ph.D.
  University of Western Ontario, Canada
  
  
• Daryl Bem, Ph.D.
  Cornell University, Ithaca, NY
  
  
• Robert Bobrow, Ph.D.
  Stony Brook University, Stony Brook, NY
  
  
• Courtney Brown, Ph.D.
  Emory University, Alanta, GA
  
  
• Etzel Cardeña, Ph.D.
  University of Lund, Lund, Sweden
  
  
• Jeremy Drake, Ph.D.
  Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge, MA
  
  
• Roger D. Nelson, Ph.D.
  Princeton University, Princeton, NJ
  
  
• Mark Rodeghier, Ph.D.
  Center for UFO Studies, Chicago, IL
  
  
• Daniel Sheehan, Ph.D.
  University of San Diego, San Diego, CA

Editorial Board

• Richard C. Henry, Ph.D. (Editorial Chair)
  Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD
  
  
• Mikel Aickin, Ph.D.
  University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
  
  
• Steven J. Dick, Ph.D.
  U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, DC
  
  
• Peter Fenwick, Ph.D.
  Institute of Psychiatry, London, UK
  
  
• Alan Gauld, Ph.D.
  University of Nottingham, UK
  
  
• Wayne B. Jonas, Ph.D.
  Samueli Institute, Alexandria, VA
  
  
• Michael Levin, Ph.D.
  Tufts University, Boston, MA
  
  
• David C. Pieri, Ph.D.
  Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
  
  
• Juan Roederer, Ph.D.
  University of Alaska–Fairbanks, AK
  
  
• Yervant Terzian, Ph.D.
  Cornell University, Ithaca, NY
  
  
• N. C. Wickramasinghe, Ph.D
  Churchill College, Cambridge, UK

Do you have better credentials that the associate editors or editorial board of the JSE?

What does that have to do with it? They have degrees in their respective fields big whoop. It's still pseudoscience.

 

[jeanie]

There was a Nova special about this. Turns out its because they have an internal clock.