Dogma and a Divorce Dilemma

[Otherright]

A friend and I were talking yesterday. Over the past couple months, he's started attending a church regularly, and is very happy with what he's learning and is quick to discuss and learn more, which I happily oblige.

We were on the discussion of tattoos, as he's trying to justify having several, when the topic took a quick twist. In January, he'd had an affair and somehow his marriage survived. The conversation went so:

He: I know what I did earlier this year was wrong.
I: You knew that when you were doing it.
He: Yeah, but it was adultery, and....
I: Man, I'm not judging you for that. I don't know the whole story and its not my life.
He: Well, you were married once before, so technically, every time you lay in bed with your wife, you are committing adultery.

I had to close my eyes for a second and take a breath, to maintain. I slowly leaned in to make sure I had his attention when I replied, "Don't put me in your boat because you feel guilt about what you did. Deal with that between you and God."

I didn't really get the chance to say anything about scriptural divorces, or mention the fact that I was divorced before I started dating again, or really carry on the conversation. Because he said something else, that I didn't quiet hear because of what instantly came out of my mouth.

I ended the conversation with, "Yeah, well, you can take your fairy tale rulebook and shove it up your self-righteous ***." I then walked away for a few moments to get some composure and came back and said we needed to change the conversation.

So, here's the deal: I feel that dogma can lead to suffering as it can, such as in this situation, make you judge others, create anger between friends, make you feel guilt, etc. By applying rules that extend beyond what one would call a Natural Law of Man,where we deal with one another in a way that is unnatural, that is through these additional rules.

What's your take, do dogmas cause more harm than good?

 

[linwood]

Almost always.

Dogma is for people who can`t think.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Dogma (in this sense) always harms.

But, dogma simply means "teaching." In this case, the "teaching" is being used in such a way that it causes harm and therefore is not being used according to its intent.

 

[Otherright]

There you are. I was wondering when you would show up. Again, another thing we agree on.

 

[Father Heathen]

A friend and I were talking yesterday. Over the past couple months, he's started attending a church regularly, and is very happy with what he's learning and is quick to discuss and learn more, which I happily oblige.

We were on the discussion of tattoos, as he's trying to justify having several, when the topic took a quick twist. In January, he'd had an affair and somehow his marriage survived. The conversation went so:

He: I know what I did earlier this year was wrong.
I: You knew that when you were doing it.
He: Yeah, but it was adultery, and....
I: Man, I'm not judging you for that. I don't know the whole story and its not my life.
He: Well, you were married once before, so technically, every time you lay in bed with your wife, you are committing adultery.

I had to close my eyes for a second and take a breath, to maintain. I slowly leaned in to make sure I had his attention when I replied, "Don't put me in your boat because you feel guilt about what you did. Deal with that between you and God."

I didn't really get the chance to say anything about scriptural divorces, or mention the fact that I was divorced before I started dating again, or really carry on the conversation. Because he said something else, that I didn't quiet hear because of what instantly came out of my mouth.

I ended the conversation with, "Yeah, well, you can take your fairy tale rulebook and shove it up your self-righteous ***." I then walked away for a few moments to get some composure and came back and said we needed to change the conversation.

So, here's the deal: I feel that dogma can lead to suffering as it can, such as in this situation, make you judge others, create anger between friends, make you feel guilt, etc. By applying rules that extend beyond what one would call a Natural Law of Man,where we deal with one another in a way that is unnatural, that is through these additional rules.

What's your take, do dogmas cause more harm than good?

Yeah, that's not even comparable. He betrayed the trust and commitment between him and his partner. That's what makes cheating wrong. When you divorce someone all of that is dissolved and severed. It's not "adultery" when that bond doesn't even exist anymore.
You should've brought up the fact that tattoos are also forbidden by scripture.

 

[Otherright]

Yeah, that's not even comparable. He betrayed the trust and commitment between him and his partner. That's what makes cheating wrong. When you divorce someone all of that is dissolved and severed. It's not "adultery" when that bond doesn't even exist anymore.
You should've brought up the fact that tattoos are also forbidden by scripture.

That's true, but I didn't want to make it appear as though I was judging him, since he was judging me. So, I didn't bring up that point.

I felt like he was trying to draw me into his guilt by trying to equate us together.

 

[Mister Emu]

I: You knew that when you were doing it.

From the text, this is when the conversation turned south in my opinion.

edit:

So, here's the deal: I feel that dogma can lead to suffering as it can, such as in this situation, make you judge others, create anger between friends

Dogma doesn't make you judge someone, and you all created anger between yourselves by yourselves, the dogma didn't do that.

By applying rules that extend beyond what one would call a Natural Law of Man,where we deal with one another in a way that is unnatural, that is through these additional rules.

Who decides what this "Natural Law of Man" is? There is a great deal of Catholic work on natural law... I doubt you'd agree with it.

 

[Muffled]

A friend and I were talking yesterday. Over the past couple months, he's started attending a church regularly, and is very happy with what he's learning and is quick to discuss and learn more, which I happily oblige.

We were on the discussion of tattoos, as he's trying to justify having several, when the topic took a quick twist. In January, he'd had an affair and somehow his marriage survived. The conversation went so:

He: I know what I did earlier this year was wrong.
I: You knew that when you were doing it.
He: Yeah, but it was adultery, and....
I: Man, I'm not judging you for that. I don't know the whole story and its not my life.
He: Well, you were married once before, so technically, every time you lay in bed with your wife, you are committing adultery.

I had to close my eyes for a second and take a breath, to maintain. I slowly leaned in to make sure I had his attention when I replied, "Don't put me in your boat because you feel guilt about what you did. Deal with that between you and God."

I didn't really get the chance to say anything about scriptural divorces, or mention the fact that I was divorced before I started dating again, or really carry on the conversation. Because he said something else, that I didn't quiet hear because of what instantly came out of my mouth.

I ended the conversation with, "Yeah, well, you can take your fairy tale rulebook and shove it up your self-righteous ***." I then walked away for a few moments to get some composure and came back and said we needed to change the conversation.

So, here's the deal: I feel that dogma can lead to suffering as it can, such as in this situation, make you judge others, create anger between friends, make you feel guilt, etc. By applying rules that extend beyond what one would call a Natural Law of Man,where we deal with one another in a way that is unnatural, that is through these additional rules.

What's your take, do dogmas cause more harm than good?

Jesus shows more compassion than that. When he condemns those who divorce and remarry as adultereers, he is referring to the practice of getting rid of one woman because the person wants another one. In those days it was always the man who sought divorce and it left a woman without a means of support. Obviously times have changed and the causes of divorce vary. Doubtless the victim of a divorce can be a man and the victim does not carry the guilt of adultery. I also don't believe it is a case of on-going sin. The sin is only comitted once ie leaving ones spouse for another partner but once those two are legitimately married there is no longer any sin.

A false teaching causes more harm than good. Sometimes even good teaching can cause harm if the person uses it as a weapon. I overheard a conversation from a man who was distressed because a momoment of indiscretion led to the loss of the person he loved. Whose sin was greater, the person who comitted adultery or the person who wouldn't forgive the sin? Both caused harm. I once was a counsellor for CBN and had a call from a woman whose husband wouldn't forgive her adultery. He didn't divorce her but was making her life a living hell instead. That seems a lot worse to me.

 

[Otherright]

From the text, this is when the conversation turned south in my opinion.

edit:

Dogma doesn't make you judge someone, and you all created anger between yourselves by yourselves, the dogma didn't do that.


Who decides what this "Natural Law of Man" is? There is a great deal of Catholic work on natural law... I doubt you'd agree with it.

Why do you think I would disagree with it? Peace be with you.

 

[bain-druie]

Not surprisingly, given my choice of spirituality, I believe dogma always does harm when it is set forth as the Truth to the exclusion of all else. Dogma etymologically just means an opinion or a tenet, what someone thinks is true; in that sense, we all have dogma about everything.

I believe that dogma as exclusivist propaganda does harm in several ways, but two main ones are as follows:

1. When dogma is used deliberately by one person to harangue or condemn someone else. TONS of exclusivist dogmatic history to exemplify this one.

2. When dogma is used by a well-intentioned, naive or ignorant person to try to help someone else who is seen as inferior in some way because they do not conform with the dogma. Lots of history on this one also.

Based on your account of the conversation, I'd have to agree with Mister Emu that things began to go bad when you put your 'dogma' (as in, opinion) that he knew he was wrong when he was doing what he did into the mix without being asked for it.

Of course if someone asks you what you think, as you did by starting the thread, then you should be honest. But when someone is already making him or herself vulnerable by an admission of wrongdoing, it is sort of kicking them while they're down to add to their burden of guilt unasked. :slap:

That's my 2 cents. :curtsy:

 

[Mister Emu]

Why do you think I would disagree with it? Peace be with you.

For one it says that if you marry after divorce you are in a permanent state of adultery.

 

[blackout]

A friend and I were talking yesterday. Over the past couple months, he's started attending a church regularly, and is very happy with what he's learning and is quick to discuss and learn more, which I happily oblige.

We were on the discussion of tattoos, as he's trying to justify having several, when the topic took a quick twist. In January, he'd had an affair and somehow his marriage survived. The conversation went so:

He: I know what I did earlier this year was wrong.
I: You knew that when you were doing it.
He: Yeah, but it was adultery, and....
I: Man, I'm not judging you for that. I don't know the whole story and its not my life.
He: Well, you were married once before, so technically, every time you lay in bed with your wife, you are committing adultery.

I had to close my eyes for a second and take a breath, to maintain. I slowly leaned in to make sure I had his attention when I replied, "Don't put me in your boat because you feel guilt about what you did. Deal with that between you and God."

I didn't really get the chance to say anything about scriptural divorces, or mention the fact that I was divorced before I started dating again, or really carry on the conversation. Because he said something else, that I didn't quiet hear because of what instantly came out of my mouth.

I ended the conversation with, "Yeah, well, you can take your fairy tale rulebook and shove it up your self-righteous ***." I then walked away for a few moments to get some composure and came back and said we needed to change the conversation.

So, here's the deal: I feel that dogma can lead to suffering as it can, such as in this situation, make you judge others, create anger between friends, make you feel guilt, etc. By applying rules that extend beyond what one would call a Natural Law of Man,where we deal with one another in a way that is unnatural, that is through these additional rules.

What's your take, do dogmas cause more harm than good?

Are you a christian?

 

[Otherright]

For one it says that if you marry after divorce you are in a permanent state of adultery.

Well, then yeah, I would disagree with that being a natural law because it is a theological dogmatic statement that supports that idea.

 

[Otherright]

Are you a christian?

Back in the day.

 

[blackout]

Back in the day.

Well then, at this point,
I really wouldn't worry about your friend's christian dogmas.

If judgementalism is the problem,
then it is something you will BOTH have to be careful of.

Sometimes, it is just impossible to have a good friendship
with someone of a completely different mind'set than your own,
because other things, will always come before the "friend" part.

 

[Mister Emu]

Well, then yeah, I would disagree with that being a natural law because it is a theological dogmatic statement that supports that idea.

How do you determine it?

 

[jarofthoughts]

What's your take, do dogmas cause more harm than good?

Always.
Dogma is the end of thought and the end of questions.
It is the acceptance of and resignation to a static world-view.

And that can't be a good thing.

 

[elmarna]

while Morals & Ethics are rules that underline many beliefs at best I can say that you are bound to see the judgements formed from them. The opinions of that way of thinking are bound to be expressed -so keep in mind that while they wish to inspire a fellowship of looking at it in that perticular point of view & they value them it is best to just realize & accept.
turn to your inner self & do what is right. In essence the accountability of your own actions & how you feel about it will work or figure it out that you will be confident on your decisions.
thanks for the thread!

 

[spanky71]

the definition of dogma is Idea. Which can be anybodies. I don't think your friend was judging you, you didnt like what he told you about what the scripture says about divorce it was not an idea but what God himself wants us to know how to live. He guilty himself letting you know you are too and God does not recognize divorce it does not make him better that he did not go through with a divorce its just it was bought to his attention that if he did he cant marry again or be with another. I myself am GUILTY but the word is right. I appreciate someone pointing it out to me and consider is it right wrong agree or disagree. When something is disagreeable to us its quick to fight our side and have many others to back us and agree with us fight with us and seemingly we all cant be wrong its not many on your side who agree with you. but the kicker is the one who sets the laws and judges them and doles out the justice!!

 

[Father Heathen]

How do you determine it?

Things that are arbitrary and nonsensical aren't likely to be natural law.