Does the Quran promote peaceful values? (I claim it does not.)

[icehorse]

I think you are wrong.

All claims against the Quraan are taken out of context.

Hi One-answer,

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you agree with me that actions like wife-beating and storming embassies because of cartoons of Muhammad are bad actions? And further it seems you're saying that Muslims who do such things are not following Islam (even if they say they are)?

In a large, recent poll of Muslims from around the world, about 60% agree that "a wife must obey her husband". Do you agree with that statement?

 

[Sabour]

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you agree with me that actions like wife-beating and storming embassies because of cartoons of Muhammad are bad actions? And further it seems you're saying that Muslims who do such things are not following Islam (even if they say they are)?

Yes.

In a large, recent poll of Muslims from around the world, about 60% agree that "a wife must obey her husband". Do you agree with that statement?

This depends on the husband if he is obeying God or not.

 

[icehorse]

Hi One-answer,

== On the idea of "bad actions"

Cool! So then do you denounce organizations like Hamas? (Because they support bad actions.)

Now a harder question, suppose you could have a logical debate with someone who supports Hamas. Do you think they could use the Quran to make logical arguments to support their bad actions?

== On the idea of "wife must obey"

So here it seems we just have a difference in our core values. I value equality regardless. In my value system, it doesn't matter how loving and wonderful a husband is, that still doesn't make it right for him to be in charge of the marriage. Just different values.

(One problem I is see with your value is that it's so easily and frequently abused. The next is that it will limit a society's collective creativity. There are more concerns I have...)

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[Penumbra]

I think you are wrong.

All claims against the Quraan are taken out of context.

Alright, explain to me how verses like this can be considered peaceful, and promote constructive and healthy types of thinking about those that are different from them:

002.121Those to whom We have given the Book recite it with its true recital. They [are the ones who] believe in it. And whoever disbelieves in it - it is they who are the losers.

004.056 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.

005:051 O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as friends/allies. They are [in fact] friends/allies of one another. And whoever is a friend/ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

009.073 O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.
009.074 They swear by Allah that they did not say [anything against the Prophet] while they had said the word of disbelief and disbelieved after their [pretense of] Islam and planned that which they were not to attain. And they were not resentful except [for the fact] that Allah and His Messenger had enriched them of His bounty. So if they repent, it is better for them; but if they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.

022.018 Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for God carries out all that He wills.
022.019 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
022.020 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
022.021 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
022.022 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"

033.064 Verily, Allah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire (Hell).
033.065 Wherein they will abide for ever, and they will find neither a Wali (a protector) nor a helper.
033.066 On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say: "Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger (Muhammad)."
033.067 And they will say: "Our Lord! Verily, we obeyed our chiefs and our great ones, and they misled us from the (Right) Way.
033.068 Our Lord! give them double torment and curse them with a mighty curse!"

040.070 Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent our apostles: but soon shall they know,-
040.071 When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along-
040.072 In the boiling fetid fluid: then in the Fire shall they be burned;
040.073 Then shall it be said to them: "Where are the (deities) to which ye gave part- worship-
040.074 "In derogation of God?" They will reply: "They have left us in the lurch: Nay, we invoked not, of old, anything (that had real existence)." Thus does God leave the Unbelievers to stray.
040.075 "That was because ye were wont to rejoice on the earth in things other than the Truth, and that ye were wont to be insolent.
040.076 "Enter ye the gates of Hell, to dwell therein: and evil is (this) abode of the arrogant!"

054.046 Nay, but the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and more bitter.
054.047 Verily, the Mujrimun (polytheists, disbelievers, sinners, criminals, etc.) are in error (in this world) and will burn (in the Hell-fire in the Hereafter).
054.048 The Day they will be dragged in the Fire on their faces (it will be said to them): "Taste you the touch of Hell!"

Very malevolent and tribalistic stuff, that is.

 

[svirk]

To summarize (and I hope not oversimplify), as a western secularist my reading of the Quran is that it does NOT promote modern, peaceful values such as:

- freedom of religion and freedom from religion (e.g. no penalty for apostasy

There is no penalty for apostasy in Islam. There can be no such compulsion in matters of faith.

- separation of church and state (e.g. the opposite of Sharia)

The majority faith of a community can not help but play a role in its organization. Religion can not be enforced on a people and a secular government is best.

- equality for all (e.g. women's rights, gay rights...)

Gay rights are a modern perversion. Might as well ask for the right to walk around naked or ask for the right to engage in the cannibalism of your dead parents or perhaps the right for a father and son to marry each other.

My second claim is that if a Muslim holds modern, peaceful values, those values didn't come from the scripture, and that the scripture must be massively edited and cherry-picked to support peaceful values.

You are ignorant of the scripture.

When I have cited certain verses from the Quran to support my claims, I have been told that I'm not interpreting the verses correctly.

You are copying verses from those who are actively dishonest. You need to pick one idea and discuss it.

 

[Scimitar]

Svirk,

he won't listen - he'll just claim some more nonsense and then slur you with idiocy...

...truly confuddled character he is.

Scimitar

 

[icehorse]

Hi svirk,

There is no penalty for apostasy in Islam. There can be no such compulsion in matters of faith.

I know that "no compulsion" is in the Quran. But there are many contradictory verses: 4:89 and 9:11, 9:12.

Now before you tell me that I'm not interpreting these verses correctly, stop and remember that MANY MUSLIMS in the world interpret these verses to support the death penalty for apostasy.

svirk, I agree that it is possible to find peaceful messages in the Quran. And I agree that many Muslims do. My argument is that many Muslims take violent messages from the Quran, and that it's easy to see how violence can be defended using the Quran. The Quran contradicts itself, and we see evidence of those contradictions in the world, everyday.

The majority faith of a community can not help but play a role in its organization. Religion can not be enforced on a people and a secular government is best.

It seems we agree that Sharia should not run the government? Am I understanding you?

Gay rights are a modern perversion.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

You are ignorant of the scripture.

You are copying verses from those who are actively dishonest. You need to pick one idea and discuss it.

svirk, I read the whole book. I took notes as I read. My perspective is to take the book as a whole and to notice the book's big messages.

I have often discussed individual verses with Muslims. I understand that over the last 1400 years scholars have spent literally millions of hours analyzing every word of the Quran. So of course, this collective effort has made it possible to put forth a defense for every individual verse. So if a particular verse is discussed we all know that a good defense will sound something like this: "Well, you have to remember the customs of the time, or the fact that this battle had happened a week earlier, or this whole set of verses is comparing to the OT, or this verse applies only to non-believers who did X"... and on and on and on. I have no doubt that if I give you a verse, you can supply such an explanation.

Try zooming out and looking at the book as a whole. As I read the book, I found that the Quran is really, really, really worried about non-believers. It talks about non-believers over 500 times. I have to notice that the Quran seems to be less concerned about good morals and ethics, and more worried about non-believers.

I have to notice that the Quran mostly treats women as being lower than men. Of course I know that you can find a verse here and there to disagree. But taken as a whole, the message of women being lower than men is the message that comes through.

svirk, Everyday in the news - from around the world - we see evidence that many, many Muslims take the same messages from the Quran that I'm claiming. So you don't need to convince me, you need to convince those Muslims who view the Quran as a manual to commit violence against women, gays, Jews, apostates and on and on.

Finally svirk, I have heard from many Muslims that the West is to blame for all of this behavior. I will be the first to agree that the West has committed many horrible acts. But that explains only some of this violent behavior. This does not explain why most Muslim violence is committed against other Muslims. Is it not the case that Muslims of one sect often view Muslims of another sect as apostates? This has nothing to do with outsiders.

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[icehorse]

Scimitar,

Your personal attacks don't win you many allies. You should have more respect for the people reading this thread.

How about debating the ideas for once, and stopping all the juvenile mud slinging?

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[Scimitar]

Icehorse,

after your time here, have you not learned that quoting out of context doenst earn you no friends either?

You dont speak arabic, and rely upon a translation which is meant to be read with the exegetes of it - which in itself is composed of volumes of books to cover just one book, the Quran.... BUT - YOU JUST READ THE QURAN IN ENGLISH THINKING "OH LOOK WHAT IT SAYS HERE"

Pat yourself on the back for that

*sarcasm

Scimitar.

 

[kashmir]

I agree with the OP, we don't even have to use verses of the quran to show how violent the doctrine is.
Just look at what is going on in the real world.
Islam is torturing and murdering those caught who left their faith.
Their gov laws revolved around the quran...

Muslim Brotherhood and the killing and persecution of Christians in Egypt - Watertown International News | Examiner.com

Christian woman Meriam Yahia Ibrahim Ishag, eight months pregnant, sentenced to death by hanging for refusing to convert to Islam | News.com.au

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/egypt-sentences-529-to-death/2014/03/24/a4f95692-6992-461e-aaf1-9bc84908a429_story.html

 

[Scimitar]

Oh wait.... the US Army is actually a Muslim army that is hellbent on taking over the middle east - which is full of good church going Christians, further - Muslims don't live there, right?


Pfft... dude. Stop Embarrassing Yourself.

 

[icehorse]

Icehorse,

after your time here, have you not learned that quoting out of context doenst earn you no friends either?

You dont speak arabic, and rely upon a translation which is meant to be read with the exegetes of it - which in itself is composed of volumes of books to cover just one book, the Quran.... BUT - YOU JUST READ THE QURAN IN ENGLISH THINKING "OH LOOK WHAT IT SAYS HERE"

Pat yourself on the back for that

*sarcasm

Scimitar.

Scimitar, I'm not claiming any new interpretations at all. Why is it that we have so much evidence in the world that many, many Muslims interpret the Quran the same way I'm interpreting it? Are all of those folks wrong too?

If so, what's your authority for claiming that you know the "correct" way to interpret the book?

 

[Scimitar]

Sitting with Scholars, men of learning... and not internet morons such as forum peeps.

Thats what I do. I actually sit with a a priest, a pastor and a rabbi in my local library and we discuss religion, history, etc etc etc. They produce books to back up their claims, and I do the same. We invite each other for tea and have the most amazing conversations - which often lead to us sitting together and watching lectures from key religious speakers from the abrahamic faiths. We often find ourselves clapping at the same points, and championing the same understanding - and I find one thing we all have in common:

We all have the light. Meaning, we all know what instinctual goodness is, and we do not run from it.

We email scholars and students of knowledge who are specialising in a specific field of study to understand more... we don't go to the interweb and ask Rabbi Google-Schmuck for advice, no.... why? Because the interweb is a free for all anyone can edit, lets all be morons kinda place.... and what you'd do if you went down that avenue, is prove it to me that you are just another wannabe who aint never gonna be.

The reason I recommend going to a scholar is because its cheaper than buying a tafsir al Quran set - which will probably set you back a few hundred dollars at least - the volumes are large, each one larger than the Quran itself - and often composed of anything over 7 volumes.

Thus, the scholar is always a good bet - I recommend Hamza Yusuf Hansen. He is an American born convert to Islam who has studied under the most prominent shaikhs and has a good command of the classical Arabic, and can give exegetes on Quran itself.

His lectures are to be found on youtube.

Take care bud, salaam

Scimitar

 

[icehorse]

Scimitar,

Sitting with scholars seems like a fine practice. No sarcasm.

But how do you guys deal with the evidence in the world? Many, many Muslims interpret the book the same way I do. Are all of those Muslims wrong? Who's correct the Sunni or the Shia?

When an object in the world is hard to use it's the fault of the designer, not the user. If a cell phone is hard to use, people don't recommend it, and it fails. This is not the fault of the people trying to use the phone, it's the fault of the designer.

Likewise, it is all too apparent in the world that there are dangerous and violent disagreements about the Quran. Is it not the case that most of the 23,000 Muslim terrorist attacks committed in the last 13 years have been sectarian, Muslim against Muslim in nature?

 

[Scimitar]

WOW your post got a genuine smile out of me here bud.

Beleive it or not, as a Muslim, most of my arguments are with Muslims who dont understand even the basics of Islamic theology.... and thats just the start.

You know who Sir George Bernard Shaw was? Well, he was a philosopher and playright. Shortly before his death, he was interviewed on TV. The last question asked him was "what is the best and worst thing you've seen in this world?"

his answer is one that made me jump out of my chair and salut him.

He answered to the tune of "My answer may come as a surprise to this western audience whom I am best known amongst, but, The best thing I have seen is the religion of Islam. And the worst thing I have seen are the people who follow it."

He got it in a nutshell.... ever since the mid 1600's, the Muslim world has fallen into an empirical decline. Too many factors contributed to this for me to mention here, but suffice it to say that since that time, Islamic scholarship, and education, has taken a serious downward spiral... that's not to say that prominent scholars have not risen since that time - they have - just not in the same frequency as ages past.

One of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh prime concerns on his deathbed was his "Ummah" - meaning nation - now that doesn't mean Arabs - because the Prophet pbuh made it clear that there is no nationality in Islam - race is not a factor either. And so, by nation he was referring, in context, to all Muslims.

In the ahadeeth regarding the end times, Muhammad pbuh spoke specifically about the trials and tribulations which will befall the Muslims, and as an eschatologist, I can honestly say that his prophecies were totally on point, and still unraveling in todays age.

As for the state of Muslims today... our countries are lead by men who don't care for the people, but for their own pockets and ego's. They install systems which promote the material over the spiritual, further, they shamelessly tout hatred of other sects on their national TV stations (which is totally un-islamic btw) - and this facilitates the desire in people to move away from the spiritual and so, the institutions such as Madressas are slowly becoming less frequented - this impacts the communities because when matters of religion are bought up, some idiot with a machine gun will say "LISTEN TO ME" and that, well, need I say more?

The situation is effed all over the world, not just for Muslims, but for Christians and Jews too.... its such a shame that the three groups cannot reconcile the differences just for one purpose - to stand together and represent God on earth.

 

[icehorse]

As for the state of Muslims today... our countries are lead by men who don't care for the people, but for their own pockets and ego's. They install systems which promote the material over the spiritual, further, they shamelessly tout hatred of other sects on their national TV stations (which is totally un-islamic btw) - and this facilitates the desire in people to move away from the spiritual and so, the institutions such as Madressas are slowly becoming less frequented - this impacts the communities because when matters of religion are bought up, some idiot with a machine gun will say "LISTEN TO ME" and that, well, need I say more?

The situation is effed all over the world, not just for Muslims, but for Christians and Jews too.... its such a shame that the three groups cannot reconcile the differences just for one purpose - to stand together and represent God on earth.

So how should we combat this sad trend?

Scimitar, how about if 21st century scholars came out with a new translation that would be harder for bad people to distort for their own selfish purposes?

 

[kashmir]

So how should we combat this sad trend?

Scimitar, how about if 21st century scholars came out with a new translation that would be harder for bad people to distort for their own selfish purposes?

Man seems to corrupt everything they get their hands on.
Even if the new scripture just said "Love everyone"
Man would corrupt it completely by redefining the simple word "love"

 

[Scimitar]

So how should we combat this sad trend?

Scimitar, how about if 21st century scholars came out with a new translation that would be harder for bad people to distort for their own selfish purposes?

Hi again Ice may I take this oppo to publicly apologise to you, i feel i may have pre-judged you a little harshly, and to show my sincerity, I want to make it known here that I was in the wrong to be harsh to you in some previous posts. I'm deeply sorry. I hope you have it in your heart to let bygones be bygones - though i suspect your heart is large enough to accommodate that hope.

Your question and suggestions are good. In the greater scheme of things, I think its important to give people a real hope - not just a regional one. Take for example the ACW initiative which is a trust, an initiative between Christianity and Islam - not Chrislam (no new religion folks, sorry) but an understanding between the faiths that together they form over half the worlds populus. If they (we) stand together, and follow through with the initiative - and if God wills it, we will see some benefit come from that.

You may be curious as to who the ACW are - it stands for "A Common Word" - Jesus pbuh said "love thy neighbour"... Muhammad pbuh said "No believer truly beleives until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself" a companion asked "is that my brother in Islam?" Muhammad pbuh replied "No, it is your brother in humanity" - meaning, we do not choose who to help based on religion, we help those who are the most needy, regardless of religious affiliation. He (Muhammad pbuh) also said "he is not one of us who sleeps on a full stomach while his neighbour goes hungry"... these narrations provide a basis for Christians and Muslims to recognise that we have a JOB TO DO - TOGETHER... God was always subtle with men, why should HE change HIS ways in these times? These times when subtlety seems to be a thing of the past - we must look back and recognise that it is through deep contemplation of the verses in which we can find the subtle answers which are truth.

This movement was signed by the last pope, and now signed off by pope Francis also. The King of Jordan, who is from ahlul bait - meaning, a direct descendant from the house of the Prophet pbuh - commissioned this initiative and took it to the RCC, since the RCC joined - other Christian denominations have also joined.... and you know what is truly amazing? Even Muslim sects - who are usually so opposed to each other, are now signing it too.... things are happening, but our "media" won't ever let us know. We know why, their agenda is to populate the world with materially inclined carbon copies of the modern slave - a man who does nothing but work so he can spend his money in ways that only serve to gratify himself and be of no use to anyone else.... some said that the day would never come when man would stoop so low as to reach this depth of inhumanity... but as time moves inevitably on, we find that this is turning out to be the case.

There is hope.

A Common Word Between Us and You view the pdf (its a free download) and very worthwhile reading. In truth, bro Ice, I was really quite impressed with it, and have joined it a few years back.

Scimitar

 

[Scimitar]

Man seems to corrupt everything they get their hands on.
Even if the new scripture just said "Love everyone"
Man would corrupt it completely by redefining the simple word "love"

Kashmir ole fellow, you claimed the Quran is a violent doctrine - and now this?

Are you having a change of heart? Or are you in contradiction of your own thoughts? which is it?

Scimi

 

[Union]

Alright, explain to me how verses like this can be considered peaceful, and promote constructive and healthy types of thinking about those that are different from them:

Very malevolent and tribalistic stuff, that is.

Hi Penumbra . Warning somebody who is doing wrong is not the act of violating the peace .