Does the Qur'an Deny the Crucifixion of Jesus?

[Rational_Mind]

I believe both Quran and Baha'i Scriptures are from God. But Baha'i Scriptures have come for this Age.


No,that is not the case.
I think you are a Moslem, and thus, our common ground would be Quran and authentic hadithes.


Are you saying Quran and hadithes are not enough to make your point?
"Say, do you know better than Allah?" (Qur’an, 2:140)

My point is highlighted in bold red. Everywhere there is a disagreement you would have to accept the latter. So as such it would be senseless for us to discuss on the ground of the Quran when the other does not consider it the utmost highest authority. If you are trying the prove that the Quran says something towards a Muslim audience then it makes sense. But for me the audience is not a Muslim and it would not make sense to present an argument from the Quran when the audience does not consider it the utmost highest autority. Rather it would make sense if I used your scriptures of highest authority to prove to you any point.

 

[Rational_Mind]

RationalMind:

Please consider my last post for LoverOfTruth First. Then These are my 4 questions:

if indeed that is the case and after Jesus left, His Book was also corrupted, then what did those people have to be guided with from the time of Jesus to Muhammad? How could God, who is caring and loving, left them for 600 years without proper guidance? Why God didn't send them a prophet earlier to tell them the Truth and give them the Book for their guidance? Why waiting for 600 years and then sending Muhammad?


What answer Islam have for these questions? If you are going to reply, I demand you a complete answer to above 4 questions.
Please support your answeres with verses of Quran, or known Hadithes whenever possible

Jesus (as) did not die on the cross. He was not crucified but was put on the cross. If one takes the time to look up the word used in the Holy Quran, it is salabuhu. Which means to die on the cross. Jesus (as) did not die on the cross as per the Holy Quran.

Allah (swt) did not leave the people astray. Those looking for guidance found it in the scriptures. They were pure and pristine in the beginning and slowly began to become corrupted. If this was not the case then it is unreasonable that we find concrete proof of changes made. The Holy Quran clearly speaks about this issue, there were people who would change the word of God for their own desires.

So now we need to understand when Allah (swt) sent for reformation of the people. Reformation through a Prophet (saw) is needed when there has been extreme evil spread on the land and almost no good is left. After Jesus (as) was put on the cross, Allah (swt) saved him and he migrated to the other tribes of Israel who were lost. He helped guide them to the right path and taught them the Injeel. After the death of Jesus (as) over a long period of time there was an eventual decay in spirituality of his followers. Until finally Allah (swt) as his Sunnah gave life to the dead through the Holy Prophet (saw). All stories of the past related in the Holy Quran show the same thing. The people are given a message, they corrupt it and chose to go astray, a Prophet(saw) of Allah (swt) is sent accordingly and those who outright reject him they are destroyed as a civilization, those who accept him take great benefits and rise against all odds when everyone attempts to destroy them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

My point is highlighted in bold red. Everywhere there is a disagreement you would have to accept the latter.
So as such it would be senseless for us to discuss on the ground of the Quran when the other does not consider it the utmost highest authority. If you are trying the prove that the Quran says something towards a Muslim audience then it makes sense. But for me the audience is not a Muslim and it would not make sense to present an argument from the Quran when the audience does not consider it the utmost highest autority. Rather it would make sense if I used your scriptures of highest authority to prove to you any point.

Baha'is believe Bible, Quran and Baha'i Scriptures are different chapters of the Book of God, revealed in different Ages, but they are fundamentally the same Message. Thus we accept all of them.
So, I don't see any problem discussing it from Quran and Authentic Hadithes. So, no problem there.
Moreover, If you as a Moslem claim that Quran says Bible is corrupted. So, I am asking to stablish your proofs based on Quran and Hadithes.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Jesus (as) did not die on the cross. He was not crucified but was put on the cross. If one takes the time to look up the word used in the Holy Quran, it is salabuhu. Which means to die on the cross. Jesus (as) did not die on the cross as per the Holy Quran.

This is Irrelavent to my Questions. I said after Jesus left the World. Regardless If you believe He left due to natural death, or He died on the cross, or He physically left to sky, If you can answer the 4 Questions.

Allah (swt) did not leave the people astray. Those looking for guidance found it in the scriptures. They were pure and pristine in the beginning and slowly began to become corrupted. If this was not the case then it is unreasonable that we find concrete proof of changes made.

Ok, so you mean it took several hundereds of years for Christians to modify the Text of the Bible gradually?
This could not be the case. Because, The Bible was spread around the surface of the earth. It was not limitted to only one city so they could modify it.
Moreover, how could a people who believed Bible is the Word of God, modify their own Book who they believed is Holy?

The Holy Quran clearly speaks about this issue, there were people who would change the word of God for their own desires.

I have addressed that in my last post for LoverOfTruth. Seems you have not read it. So, I copy it here for you:

There are verses in Quran that talk about "Modification" and alteration by the Religious Leaders, however, those refer ONLY to particular cases.
One of them is concerning the penalty of adultery.
Which the Quran reveals "They pervert the text of the Word of God." See Quran 4:44-46
It is clear, in that instance, by perverting the Text is meant "Misinterpretation" as the Torah still contains the verse that says punishment for adultery is death by stone.
Another example is: "A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so." Quran 2:75
This verse, also indicates that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words in the Text of Bible are changed.

Another example,: "Woe unto those who, with their own hands, transcribe the Book corruptly, and then say: ‘This is from God,’ that they may sell it for some mean price." Quran 2:79

This verse was revealed regarding the Jewish leaders who were living at the time of Muhammad. For they had written false interpretations to refute the claims of Muhammad.
None of them says the actual Text in the Bible was modified.
Moreover, there is no verse in Quran that says the Bible was corrupted with reference to Crucification of Christ.

For example, Christians believe Jesus is God. Quran rebukes them for that, by "addressing Christians".
There is no verse in Quran "addressing Christians" and telling them Jesus was not cruicified.

So now we need to understand when Allah (swt) sent for reformation of the people. Reformation through a Prophet (saw) is needed when there has been extreme evil spread on the land and almost no good is left. After Jesus (as) was put on the cross, Allah (swt) saved him and he migrated to the other tribes of Israel who were lost. He helped guide them to the right path and taught them the Injeel. After the death of Jesus (as) over a long period of time there was an eventual decay in spirituality of his followers. Until finally Allah (swt) as his Sunnah gave life to the dead through the Holy Prophet (saw). All stories of the past related in the Holy Quran show the same thing. The people are given a message, they corrupt it and chose to go astray, a Prophet(saw) of Allah (swt) is sent accordingly and those who outright reject him they are destroyed as a civilization, those who accept him take great benefits and rise against all odds when everyone attempts to destroy them

This does not answer my Questions.
You are claiming the Bible Text got corrupted, not that its Message was corrupted gradually. I agree that its Message and teachings got forgotten or misinterpreted gradually, untill when It was the time, God sent Muhammad.That is like Quran, I believe its Text is remained, but it has been misinterpreted severely, and its fundamental teachings which are for example Brotherhood and Peace has been lost.
Please try to concentrate on the actual Questions.

 

[Rational_Mind]

This is Irrelavent to my Questions. I said after Jesus left the World. Regardless If you believe He left due to natural death, or He died on the cross, or He physically left to sky, If you can answer the 4 Questions.


Ok, so you mean it took several hundereds of years for Christians to modify the Text of the Bible gradually?
This could not be the case. Because, The Bible was spread around the surface of the earth. It was not limitted to only one city so they could modify it.
Moreover, how could a people who believed Bible is the Word of God, modify their own Book who they believed is Holy?




I have addressed that in my last post for LoverOfTruth. Seems you have not read it. So, I copy it here for you:

There are verses in Quran that talk about "Modification" and alteration by the Religious Leaders, however, those refer ONLY to particular cases.
One of them is concerning the penalty of adultery.
Which the Quran reveals "They pervert the text of the Word of God." See Quran 4:44-46
It is clear, in that instance, by perverting the Text is meant "Misinterpretation" as the Torah still contains the verse that says punishment for adultery is death by stone.
Another example is: "A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so." Quran 2:75
This verse, also indicates that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words in the Text of Bible are changed.

Another example,: "Woe unto those who, with their own hands, transcribe the Book corruptly, and then say: ‘This is from God,’ that they may sell it for some mean price." Quran 2:79

This verse was revealed regarding the Jewish leaders who were living at the time of Muhammad. For they had written false interpretations to refute the claims of Muhammad.
None of them says the actual Text in the Bible was modified.
Moreover, there is no verse in Quran that says the Bible was corrupted with reference to Crucification of Christ.

For example, Christians believe Jesus is God. Quran rebukes them for that, by "addressing Christians".
There is no verse in Quran "addressing Christians" and telling them Jesus was not cruicified.




This does not answer my Questions.
You are claiming the Bible Text got corrupted, not that its Message was corrupted gradually. I agree that its Message and teachings got forgotten or misinterpreted gradually, untill when It was the time, God sent Muhammad.That is like Quran, I believe its Text is remained, but it has been misinterpreted severely, and its fundamental teachings which are for example Brotherhood and Peace has been lost.
Please try to concentrate on the actual Questions.

These are all attempts to justify Bahi teachings using the Quran even if they clearly contradict.

Let me clear one thing out. You are standing on extremely shaky grounds. Nobody reasonable who is unbiased can remotely even believe that the bible is unmodified as there are CONCRETE evidences of it happening. You can turn a blind eye and try to ignore it, it does not change a thing. You should prove to me rather I prove to you. I am speaking reason, that people changed a book over time, you are speaking unreason by saying no what we see happened never happened. So you should prove yourself.

You are very confused about the bible. First you cannot explain why you pick four of the books and get rid of the others. What was wrong with them. Also how are they even remotely similar to the Holy Quran. Why did you equate me accepting the Holy Quran 100% versus a book that was never revealed and directly recorded coming from a Prophet of God without any personal opinions added.

Who told you that Bible was changed with consensus of opinion. If it was then we would never be able to tell. On the contrary we find conflicting scripts that show variations. Moreover, who put you under the spell that makes you believe that everyone carried around a physical bible in those times when scribes had to write them out and very sensitive mediums.

Are you also telling me that people who are known to pervert the word of God when conveying it to others would not do the same to their own work so that they can prove a Prophet of God false?

One more thing. How do you explain the Ishmael vs Isaac question of sacrifice? The Bible clearly contradicts with the Holy Quran.

Moroever, you should accept that fact that you have to hold Bahai scriptures above others and interpret them using your scriptures. This is why we cannot reason on the Holy Quran alone as you would quite frankly have to pervert it to make it reason with your scripture.

I raise your own question back to you. Those people who believe the word of God they hold is Holy, then why would they then fail to accept a Messenger (saw) of God?

You are being to apologistic and fail to accept FACTS! We have concrete evidence that such things happened. The Holy Quran clearly says that the word of God was perverted, so how do you conclude that it was only in interpretation. Moreover, if the Bible is the word of God then why is it written through inspiration rather then direct revelation. Also those who never took care to copy it properly in exact then how do you expect them to take care of preserving it against their own selfish desires.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

These are all attempts to justify Bahi teachings using the Quran even if they clearly contradict.

Let me clear one thing out. You are standing on extremely shaky grounds. Nobody reasonable who is unbiased can remotely even believe that the bible is unmodified as there are CONCRETE evidences of it happening. You can turn a blind eye and try to ignore it, it does not change a thing. You should prove to me rather I prove to you. I am speaking reason, that people changed a book over time, you are speaking unreason by saying no what we see happened never happened. So you should prove yourself.

Dear Rational Mind,

To sum up:

Among the Moslems who believe that the Bible became corrupted, they have two main theories:
One is that, when the Bible was written, the Scribes changed it as they were writing it. If that was the case, then it was corrupted from begining. Which does not make any sense, because then how could all those people for 600 years were left with no guidance from God. This is contradictory to God who is a Loving provider, and guides His servents by sending them Messengers. This is contradictory to the Powerful God, to say His revelation was defeated, and He had to wait 600 years to send the next Messenger.

Second theory is that, Some Moslems believe that at the time of Muhammad, the Christian and Jewish leaders changed their Book, so to reject Muhammad.
This also does not make sense, because, the Gospel and Torah were spread arround the earth. It was not limited to Mecca and Medina, so they can change them.
and If they gradually changed their Books, we should see each country and city to have a different Bible. But this is not the case. People who believe a Book is Holy do not change it, neither anyone can convince them to change their own Book, just to reject a Prophet.

You are very confused about the bible. First you cannot explain why you pick four of the books and get rid of the others. What was wrong with them. Also how are they even remotely similar to the Holy Quran. Why did you equate me accepting the Holy Quran 100% versus a book that was never revealed and directly recorded coming from a Prophet of God without any personal opinions added.

Are you saying God did not have power to guide His revelation? He sent Jesus to guide them.
Why 4 Gospel? God could have inspired them and help them to choose the right ones.
Let's not forget, the Idea behind religion, is that there is a Powerful all-knowing God. He reveals His words to guide His people, and He guides who ever He Wills.

Who told you that Bible was changed with consensus of opinion. If it was then we would never be able to tell. On the contrary we find conflicting scripts that show variations. Moreover, who put you under the spell that makes you believe that everyone carried around a physical bible in those times when scribes had to write them out and very sensitive mediums.

There is no fundamental contradiction in Bible. Neither there is any instance that Bible is different with Quran in Essential Teachings.

Are you also telling me that people who are known to pervert the word of God when conveying it to others would not do the same to their own work so that they can prove a Prophet of God false?

If you are saying, the Bible contained some explicit verses regarding Muhammad. That was not the case.
The Islam has the concept of Mahdi. There is no verse in Quran that Explicitly talks about Mahdi. That does not mean Quran is Changed.
But Quran has verses regarding future revelations and Messengers.
Likewise Bible DOES have verses regarding future Prophets, and I have shown in another thread the one releated to Islam, and how it exactly matches with the duration of Islam.

One more thing. How do you explain the Ishmael vs Isaac question of sacrifice? The Bible clearly contradicts with the Holy Quran.

Well, Islam says it was Ishmael. Bible says it was Isaac.
Both of them are correct!!
Firstly, I do not believe this event of Sacrifice to be interpreted literally.
Some of the verses of Bible or Quran are symbolic.
So, Abraham had two sons. He wanted to scarifice both of them in the Path of God.
This is pictured symbolicaly as asking Him to cut His Son's head.
The Meaning is that, for the cause of God to progress, always some would be Martyrd and have to sacrifice their lives, as every Nation plots darkly against Messengers and their companions.
Both of His sons were willing to sacrifice their life in the Path of God.
So, if God had said Issac accepted to be sacrificed is true. In later revelation He said Ismael accepted to be sacrificed, that is also true.
This is how God tests with His Books. Total submission means, to accept whatever God reveales in every Age.

Moroever, you should accept that fact that you have to hold Bahai scriptures above others and interpret them using your scriptures. This is why we cannot reason on the Holy Quran alone as you would quite frankly have to pervert it to make it reason with your scripture.

Not really. We are having a logical discussion. I can support whatever I have said from Quran's essential teachings.
Bahai scriptures corrects the misunderstanding and appearant differences between believers of previous revelations.

I raise your own question back to you. Those people who believe the word of God they hold is Holy, then why would they then fail to accept a Messenger (saw) of God?

Because, it is always against their desire to let go their own stablished traditions, and accept a new revelation.

“Verily we found our fathers with a faith, and verily, in their footsteps we follow.” Quran 43:22

You are being to apologistic and fail to accept FACTS! We have concrete evidence that such things happened. The Holy Quran clearly says that the word of God was perverted, so how do you conclude that it was only in interpretation.

I replied to that. You need to research to see some original Tafseers, and to know for what those verses were revealed. As I explained, none of them says the actual text of Bible was changed. If you are going to discuss those verses of Quran, I demand you do research on History, to see why those verses were revealed. Even some original Tafseers by Moslems, agree that, those verses of Quran mean, the interpretation of Bible was twisted, not the actual text.

Moreover, if the Bible is the word of God then why is it written through inspiration rather then direct revelation.

There are two types of Prophets.
One type are those who recieve the word of God directly. Others are those who indirectly are inspired. They have visions and dreams.
The Bible is written by the second type as Jesus according to Bible was crucified after 3 years from His revelation.
The Gospel was written by the Disciples of Christ. According to Quran the Disciples were in perfect submission to God. That means they are trustworthy, and were inspired by God,

Also those who never took care to copy it properly in exact then how do you expect them to take care of preserving it against their own selfish desires.

How do you know they did not care to copy it properly? There is no evidence for that.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Sorry I was busy for a while so couldn't reply.

Really?


Sure, Let's see....

That's right so far...


That is right so far....

No, God does not leave His Book corrupted, just to test people.
Your view does not exist in Quran. There is no verse in Quran or even Hadithes, that God, leaves a corrupted Book to test people.
What Quran says, God gives His Book as a Guidance. By His Book, He lays down the standard, by which false is known from the Truth. Thus, by that standard, people are tested. whoso acts against it, is considered transgressor.

I never said that Qur'an or Hadith states that God leaves a corrupt book to test people. Your understanding of the concept of 'Test' is flawed. Notice that the Qur'an or the Hadith doesn't mention every evil that occur in the world either. For example, rape is not mentioned as a Test in the Qur'an. So what is it ? Why does God allow an innocent woman to be raped by a criminal ? These are evils performed by bad humans which are part of the tests for the good humans. Similarly, corruption of the holy books are the evil performed by bad humans which are part of the test for the good humans. If you cannot understand this simple concept, I am sorry I cannot help you further in this regard.

Answer my questions above if you are gonna respond.

Please support your claim by verses of Quran.
There are verses in Quran that talk about "Modification" and alteration by the Religious Leaders, however, those refer ONLY to particular cases.
One of them is concerning the penalty of adultery.
Which the Quran reveals "They pervert the text of the Word of God." Quran 4:44
It is clear, in that instance, by perverting the Text is meant "Misinterpretation" as the Torah still contains the verse that says punishment for adultery is death by stone.
Another example is: "A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so." Quran 2:75
This verse, also indicate that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words in the Bible are changed.

Another example,: "Woe unto those who, with their own hands, transcribe the Book corruptly, and then say: ‘This is from God,’ that they may sell it for some mean price." Quran 2:79

This verse was revealed regarding the Jewish leaders who were living at the time of Muhammad. For they had written false interpretations to refute the claims of Muhammad.
None of them says the actual Text in the Bible was modified.
Moreover, there is no verse in Quran that says the Bible was corrupted with reference to Crucification of Christ.

We are discussing here. I don't care about your links.

I am just following your technique of pointing people to other threads here : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3127266-post53.html
Above clearly shows from the Qur'an as well as from the Bible how the Bible is corrupted.

You are comparing two unrelated things. If that was the case, God did not have to send Quran. He could continue testing people the same way as you claim He did before Muhammad.
There is no verse in Quran that suggests God left those people with a corrupted Book to test them. Please do not make it up.

And whenever you cannot respond, you just say they are unrelated.
Actually, you are the one making these statements up without understanding what the TEST is all about. Yes, God could keep Testing humanity until the end - but God decided to send Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as a mercy to mankind with the Final Guidance. Why ? Ask God. And if you respond answer me Why God saves some people from Trouble while tests others with afflictions ?

That's not what I am asking.
But to make a reply. God sends His Messengers whenever guidance is required. Whenever, the Message is forgotten or distorted. Whenever, people need a prophet to show them the right way.
If The Bible was corrupted, God would have sent a Messenger to tell them so. Why waiting 600 years.
It seems you have no real answer. Just be fair in your judgement.

Read what you have stated above :
"God sends His Messengers whenever guidance is required. Whenever, the Message is forgotten or distorted. Whenever, people need a prophet to show them the right way."

So how is that different from why God sent Muhammad(pbuh) 600 years after Jesus(pbuh) ? How is it different from Why did God wait 1000 years to send Jesus(pbuh) after Solomon(pbuh) ? It is no different at all - you are just choosing to ignore the latter.

When the True Message of God is distorted and forgotten over the years, God sends another messenger with the Message. The distortion doesn't happen overnight in one day. Same thing happened for previous prophets. God sent a messenger with the Message and people over time corrupted the Message and gone far away from the Truth and when it was necessary to Guide them again God sent another messenger with the Message until God promised to preserve the Final Message so it won't be corrupted/lost and therefore, no need for any other messengers.

Now, if you would claim that is not the case and messages got distorted/corrupted overnight, so for example, Solomon's message got distorted on the last day before Jesus(pbuh) arrived - please don't come back with a response unless you have proof from the scripture stating that. Don't make things up.

And if you agree that Messages got corrupted over time just like it happened during the time between Jesus(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh), then answer your own questions first.

How could God, who is caring and loving, left them for 1000 years without proper guidance? Why God didn't send them a prophet earlier to tell them the Truth and give them the Book for their guidance?

Peace.

 

[FearGod]

Dear Rational Mind,

To sum up:

Among the Moslems who believe that the Bible became corrupted, they have two main theories:
One is that, when the Bible was written, the Scribes changed it as they were writing it. If that was the case, then it was corrupted from begining. Which does not make any sense, because then how could all those people for 600 years were left with no guidance from God. This is contradictory to God who is a Loving provider, and guides His servents by sending them Messengers. This is contradictory to the Powerful God, to say His revelation was defeated, and He had to wait 600 years to send the next Messenger.

And who told you that the bible will be missing the guidance if corrupted.

The guidance in the bible was and still,but we can still see contradiction and corruption which have nothing to do with guidance.

those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, bidding them to honour, and forbidding them dishonour, making lawful for them the good things and making unlawful for them the corrupt things, and relieving them of their loads, and the fetters that were upon them. Those who believe in him and succour him and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him -- they are the prosperers. (7:157)

in other words,morals and ethics had to guide the people of the book if they wanted to follow the commandments,the book forbid commiting an adultery but they didn't follow the commandment as they believe that human will always sin and that is their excuse to make sins and their faith on Jesus to pay for their sins and that he is god..etc.

Now you are insisting to say that the bible wasn't corrupted whereas some christians believe that the bible was corrupted and even contain some contradictions,so explain to us now the scientific mistake (corruption) on creating day and night on the first day while god created the sun on the fourth day.

In genesis god said that he created the day and night on the first day

In the beginning God made from nothing the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was an empty waste and darkness was over the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was moving over the top of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good. He divided the light from the darkness. 5 Then God called the light day, and He called the darkness night. There was evening and there was morning, one day.


Then god said that he created the sun and moon on the fourth day

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the open space of the heavens to divide day from night. Let them tell the days and years and times of the year. 15 Let them be lights in the open space of the heavens to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 Then God made the two great lights, the brighter light to rule the day, and the smaller light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God put them in the open space of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule the day and the night. He divided the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

The question is

Did god creat the day and night on the first day or on the fourth day ?

 

[F0uad]

There are several verses in the Quran that tells us that the bible has been corrupted even the companions testified to these things and all the commentaries + hadiths agree on this.

So my question is if Islam insist that the scripture is indeed corrupted then how can the Bahai follow Islam?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry I was busy for a while so couldn't reply.

No problem, Welcome Back.

I never said that Qur'an or Hadith states that God leaves a corrupt book to test people.

You did not. But I believe you should support it with Quran and Authentic Hadithes, so it can be considered.

Your understanding of the concept of 'Test' is flawed. Notice that the Qur'an or the Hadith doesn't mention every evil that occur in the world either. For example, rape is not mentioned as a Test in the Qur'an. So what is it ? Why does God allow an innocent woman to be raped by a criminal ? These are evils performed by bad humans which are part of the tests for the good humans. Similarly, corruption of the holy books are the evil performed by bad humans which are part of the test for the good humans. If you cannot understand this simple concept, I am sorry I cannot help you further in this regard.

There is no verse in Quran that says, every Evil thing that happens is a Test.
What Quran and Authentic Hadithes says, is that difficaulties that exists are tests for mankind. So, when Corruption of a Book is different from difficaulties such as sicknesses, loosing a job, etc.
You are stretching it to match it with your view.

Answer my questions above if you are gonna respond.

I did.

I am just following your technique of pointing people to other threads here : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3127266-post53.html
Above clearly shows from the Qur'an as well as from the Bible how the Bible is corrupted.

I only used that Technique whenever we were getting out of the scope of thread. So, it does not work here. Sorry.

And whenever you cannot respond, you just say they are unrelated.

If something is unrelated, it has no point in our discussion. I just want to avoid getting out of the scope of the thread.

Actually, you are the one making these statements up without understanding what the TEST is all about. Yes, God could keep Testing humanity until the end - but God decided to send Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as a mercy to mankind with the Final Guidance.

We already discussed before and I showed you that there is no verse or hadith that Muhammad had the final guidance. Anyways you are getting outside of scope of thread.

But your logic is like Christian. They say Jesus is God, and He died for our sins and we do not need any other guidance from God.

Why ? Ask God. And if you respond answer me Why God saves some people from Trouble while tests others with afflictions ?

God Tests everyone. For that He gives the Proper guidance. Those who follow the guidance are saved from the Tests. The meaning is that, those are firm believers and follow the guidance, even at the difficaulties, they remain steadfast.
If the guidance was corrupted, how could people be saved from the Tests?

Read what you have stated above :
"God sends His Messengers whenever guidance is required. Whenever, the Message is forgotten or distorted. Whenever, people need a prophet to show them the right way."

So how is that different from why God sent Muhammad(pbuh) 600 years after Jesus(pbuh) ? How is it different from Why did God wait 1000 years to send Jesus(pbuh) after Solomon(pbuh) ? It is no different at all - you are just choosing to ignore the latter.

The difference is this:

God has done His part. He has given His Book Bible, which was not corrupted. Some people "misinterpreted" and distorted its meanings. That is now their own fault.
Please note that, not everyone distorted it. There were many who were saved by it.
The disciples of Jesus were true sumitters to God, according to Quran.
If the Book was corrupted by the early Christians, what was the Fault of the later Generations that they should remain with a corrupted Book? This contradicts with the Just God.

When the True Message of God is distorted and forgotten over the years, God sends another messenger with the Message. The distortion doesn't happen overnight in one day. Same thing happened for previous prophets.

Please see my last post for Rationa Mind. I have basically replied to this.

God sent a messenger with the Message and people over time corrupted the Message and gone far away from the Truth and when it was necessary to Guide them again God sent another messenger with the Message

When the spiritual teachings of Bible were forgotten then God sent Muhammad to renew it. That is what I mean by distorting the Message.

until God promised to preserve the Final Message so it won't be corrupted/lost and therefore, no need for any other messengers.

The reason that we need always Messengers is because, each Book is suitable for an Age.
Moreover, when the spiritual teachings of religion is forgotten and people act the opposite of their Book, God sends His Messenger. Also, each Age has its own problems, thus each Age requires a new guidance.

Now, if you would claim that is not the case and messages got distorted/corrupted overnight,

That is not what I said. Please read my last post for Rationa Mind.

so for example, Solomon's message got distorted on the last day before Jesus(pbuh) arrived - please don't come back with a response unless you have proof from the scripture stating that. Don't make things up.

Well, even if that is the case. Jesus was on earth as a guidance.

And if you agree that Messages got corrupted over time just like it happened during the time between Jesus(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh), then answer your own questions first.

Please read my last post for rational mind.

How could God, who is caring and loving, left them for 1000 years without proper guidance? Why God didn't send them a prophet earlier to tell them the Truth and give them the Book for their guidance?

Ok, I answer my own Question.
Firstly God did not leave them without proper guidance for 1000 years.
The Analogy (From Quran, Bible and Hadithes) is as follows: (and I can support what I say from the Book.)

When God sends a Messenger. That is like the appearance of the Sun in the Day. He gives light, so the Darkness is known from Light. The False From Truth.
When the Messenger leaves, then that is like the coming of the night.
God gives the Moon and stars for light of guidance. The Moon is like the Minor Prophets such as David and Solomon. They appeared after Moses (The Sun) Left.
The Stars are the True Spiritual Leaders. The chose ones of God. They are like the Disciples of Jesus for example, or Khalifatullah in Islam.
So, if the Book was indeed corrupted during the period of Christianity to Islam, a Minor Prophet or the Stars of Guidance would have say it. They have vissions and dreams, and God inspires them.

 

[loverOfTruth]

No problem, Welcome Back.


You did not. But I believe you should support it with Quran and Authentic Hadithes, so it can be considered.


There is no verse in Quran that says, every Evil thing that happens is a Test.
What Quran and Authentic Hadithes says, is that difficaulties that exists are tests for mankind. So, when Corruption of a Book is different from difficaulties such as sicknesses, loosing a job, etc.
You are stretching it to match it with your view.



I did.



I only used that Technique whenever we were getting out of the scope of thread. So, it does not work here. Sorry.



If something is unrelated, it has no point in our discussion. I just want to avoid getting out of the scope of the thread.


We already discussed before and I showed you that there is no verse or hadith that Muhammad had the final guidance. Anyways you are getting outside of scope of thread.

But your logic is like Christian. They say Jesus is God, and He died for our sins and we do not need any other guidance from God.




God Tests everyone. For that He gives the Proper guidance. Those who follow the guidance are saved from the Tests. The meaning is that, those are firm believers and follow the guidance, even at the difficaulties, they remain steadfast.
If the guidance was corrupted, how could people be saved from the Tests?




The difference is this:

God has done His part. He has given His Book Bible, which was not corrupted. Some people "misinterpreted" and distorted its meanings. That is now their own fault.
Please note that, not everyone distorted it. There were many who were saved by it.
The disciples of Jesus were true sumitters to God, according to Quran.
If the Book was corrupted by the early Christians, what was the Fault of the later Generations that they should remain with a corrupted Book? This contradicts with the Just God.



Please see my last post for Rationa Mind. I have basically replied to this.


When the spiritual teachings of Bible were forgotten then God sent Muhammad to renew it. That is what I mean by distorting the Message.




The reason that we need always Messengers is because, each Book is suitable for an Age.
Moreover, when the spiritual teachings of religion is forgotten and people act the opposite of their Book, God sends His Messenger. Also, each Age has its own problems, thus each Age requires a new guidance.




That is not what I said. Please read my last post for Rationa Mind.



Well, even if that is the case. Jesus was on earth as a guidance.




Please read my last post for rational mind.




Ok, I answer my own Question.
Firstly God did not leave the with proper guidance for 1000 years.
The Analogy (From Quran, Bible and Hadithes) is as follows: (and I can support what I say from the Book.)

When God sends a Messenger. That is like the appearance of the Sun in the Day. He gives light, so the Darkness is known from Light. The False From Truth.
When the Messenger leaves, then that is like the coming of the night.
God gives the Moon and stars for light of guidance. The Moon is like the Minor Prophets such as David and Solomon. They appeared after Moses (The Sun) Left.
The Stars are the True Spiritual Leaders. The chose ones of God. They are like the Disciples of Jesus for example, or Khalifatullah in Islam.
So, if the Book was indeed corrupted during the period of Christianity to Islam, a Minot Prophet or the Stars of Guidance would have say it. They have vissions and dreams, and God inspires them.

Try answering the questions I posed once again properly without evading them or coming up with explanations that is not supported with any scripture, for example, spiritual teachings of religion being forgotten as opposed to the Message being corrupted.

And 'Those who follow the guidance are saved from the Tests' ??? Do you really know what you are talking about ? When, a pious God fearing person loses his Job and suffers - He is being Tested not Saved from Test.

"Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good as trial; and to Us you will be returned." (Al-Qur'an 21:35)

 

[Rational_Mind]

Dear Rational Mind,

To sum up:

Let us bring this closer to a closure. Please let me know what evidence will suffice to prove to you that other scriptures did not get the same divine protection as did the Holy Quran. What will make you reconsider and try to find out with an unbiased view whether we find altered scrolls of the bible or not.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And who told you that the bible will be missing the guidance if corrupted.

Dear Fear God.
Your own words contradict yourself.
If you say, there are very few unimportant inaccuracies in the Bible, but it is fundamentally Truth, then you are right, and I agree with you. But what many Moslems believe, is not just a few unimportant inaccuracies. The Moslems use the word "Corrupted". Corruption is the opposite of Truth and guidance.

The guidance in the bible was and still,but we can still see contradiction and corruption which have nothing to do with guidance.

No contradition or Corruption in the Bible. Please show only ONE example here. Choose one that you can proof to me for sure.

those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, bidding them to honour, and forbidding them dishonour, making lawful for them the good things and making unlawful for them the corrupt things, and relieving them of their loads, and the fetters that were upon them. Those who believe in him and succour him and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him -- they are the prosperers. (7:157)

in other words,morals and ethics had to guide the people of the book if they wanted to follow the commandments,the book forbid commiting an adultery but they didn't follow the commandment as they believe that human will always sin and that is their excuse to make sins and their faith on Jesus to pay for their sins and that he is god..etc.

Guidance is not only the Laws. But the spiritual teachings and facts.
The Quran constantly says there is only One God. and it emphasises on that.
The Christians believe Jesus was God.
You as a Moslem believe that perhaps the Bible is corrupted and made the Christians to believe Jesus is God.
Is not this a major corruption?
Is not believing in One God a Major Belief in Islam?
So, my point is, morality is not enough to be guidance as per Islam.
The Christians eat Pork, and drink some Wine as appearantly the Bible allows it. Are these sins?

Now you are insisting to say that the bible wasn't corrupted whereas some christians believe that the bible was corrupted and even contain some contradictions,so explain to us now the scientific mistake (corruption) on creating day and night on the first day while god created the sun on the fourth day.

I have done that in my thread. Have you not read it?

Read post 187 and 188 here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/136643-signs-end-bahai-view-19.html

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Let us bring this closer to a closure. Please let me know what evidence will suffice to prove to you that other scriptures did not get the same divine protection as did the Holy Quran. What will make you reconsider and try to find out with an unbiased view whether we find altered scrolls of the bible or not.

To show Bible is Corrupted, first you need to "prove" at several "major" errors in Bible.
Then I have left many questions for you in this discussion, which you did not address them to make your point.
I would demand a reply to every one of them to stablish your point.

So far, you have been unable to prove your point, if you judge fairly.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Try answering the questions I posed once again properly without evading them or coming up with explanations that is not supported with any scripture, for example, spiritual teachings of religion being forgotten as opposed to the Message being corrupted.

And 'Those who follow the guidance are saved from the Tests' ??? Do you really know what you are talking about ? When, a pious God fearing person loses his Job and suffers - He is being Tested not Saved from Test.

"Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good as trial; and to Us you will be returned." (Al-Qur'an 21:35)

"Being Saved" from Test does not mean, not tested. It means, the Test will not cause Him a spiritual damage.
You are claiming that God does not test some people. Right? If that is the case give an instance in the History, that God did not test a peorson, or show a verse that God did not test some one, for a reason.
Moreover, you are stretching test subject with a corruption of a Book of God.
There is no relation between the Too. You need to proof there is any relation.
As I told you, God is Fair. He Tests everyone according to His Book.

If you go and right a Test at school, you need to read your Book. Likewise God gives you the Book to Test you. THis is the fundation of Religion. The Most Basic part of it. Please ponder a little.

“And that Allah may purify the believers [through trials] and destroy the disbelievers.” 3:141

That means, God test everyone. but those who are not true believers are destroyed [mostly spiritually]
If God left them with a corrupted Book, He did not give them the chance to be purified by the Tests. That contradicts with the Loving God.

 

[FearGod]

Dear Fear God.
Your own words contradict yourself.
If you say, there are very few unimportant inaccuracies in the Bible, but it is fundamentally Truth, then you are right, and I agree with you. But what many Moslems believe, is not just a few unimportant inaccuracies. The Moslems use the word "Corrupted". Corruption is the opposite of Truth and guidance.

Dear InvestigateTruth,

There is no contradiction in my words,but as you agreed that the bible may contain an unimportant inaccuracies which of course can't be made by god but by human intervention and that is kind of corruption eventhough it is unimportant inaccuracies

No contradition or Corruption in the Bible. Please show only ONE example here. Choose one that you can proof to me for sure.

That will need a separate thread which i'll plan later on to create.

Guidance is not only the Laws. But the spiritual teachings and facts.
The Quran constantly says there is only One God. and it emphasises on that.
The Christians believe Jesus was God.
You as a Moslem believe that perhaps the Bible is corrupted and made the Christians to believe Jesus is God.
Is not this a major corruption?
Is not believing in One God a Major Belief in Islam?
So, my point is, morality is not enough to be guidance as per Islam.
The Christians eat Pork, and drink some Wine as appearantly the Bible allows it. Are these sins?

Jews don't eat pork and there are many verses in the bible about drunkness

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging
Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages

I have done that in my thread. Have you not read it?

Read post 187 and 188 here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/136643-signs-end-bahai-view-19.html

God's creation of the universe
You are talking about guidance in the first day.
and the fourth day was for sun shining.

Twist it the way you like,but that won't enter our mind.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Morning was the truth and evening was false and that was the first day.

 

[Rational_Mind]

To show Bible is Corrupted, first you need to "prove" at several "major" errors in Bible.
Then I have left many questions for you in this discussion, which you did not address them to make your point.
I would demand a reply to every one of them to stablish your point.

So far, you have been unable to prove your point, if you judge fairly.

The way any logical argument works in such a scenario is as follows:
-You raise a claim that bible is free of errors

In order for me to refute it I need to produce a single example of an error / proof of tampering. That is sufficient for you to have to go back to the working table and produce something new.

Am I speaking non-sense? Everything else would be simply off-topic. More importantly, I outlined that me being Muslim and you being Bahai only have the common ground of logical reasoning. We cannot reason with the Holy Quran as you would have to consider it an "older edition" of a testament. Now if you want to purely stay within the Quran and argue that Quran testifies Bible as infallible then you are welcome to and I will entertain such arguments.

So far your arguments from the Quran are not positive proofs, rather they are rejections of statements raised by others. That would not be a positive proof of your claim. Negation of something does not entail proof of another.

Does it make sense? Do you understand why me answering an array of questions will not get you any closer to a resolution?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Dear InvestigateTruth,

There is no contradiction in my words,but as you agreed that the bible may contain an unimportant inaccuracies which of course can't be made by god but by human intervention and that is kind of corruption eventhough it is unimportant inaccuracies

Dear FearGod,

I said I agree there could be minor inaccuracies. But I did not say "inventions"
An example of minor inaccuracy may be:

For example I tell you: "I will go and buy bread". Then you write: "I will buy bread"

The Message is still the same. It is not an invention.

That will need a separate thread which i'll plan later on to create.

I had already made a thread. You might as well use it:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/133479-bible-not-corrupted.html

Jews don't eat pork and there are many verses in the bible about drunkness

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging
Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages

In previous revelation, and according to Quran, eating Camel was not allowd by Allah. But Moslems eat. Jews had to observe Sabbath Day. Moslems do not.
These do not mean corruption. Each Age has its own Book, and its own Laws.
In Christianity, too strong drink is not allowed. But a little of it is not prohibitted.
In the begining of Islam, it was still allowed to drink wine. Refer to history of Islam and Hadithes.

God's creation of the universe

You are assuming the verses are talking about the creation of the universe. It does not say universe. It says "Heavens" and Earth. "Heavens" also mean religions. There are proofs from Islamic Sources. Earth here means, Creation of Human's Civilizations.

Sorry, I said post #187. It's #186
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3115684-post186.html

You are talking about guidance in the first day.
and the fourth day was for sun shining.

The Sun is again is the symbol of guidance.

Twist it the way you like,but that won't enter our mind.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Morning was the truth and evening was false and that was the first day.

I did not say it this way. I supported that with verses of Bible.
Day is, when the Messenger appears. when He leaves, it is nite. Then there are stars and the Moon. These are the minor prophets and the chosen ones of God when Messenger leaves.
I don't care it gets in your mind or not. I supported my interpretation from Quran and Bible.
Quran also confirms, God created in 6 days. Each day of God is 1000. 6000 period of the first creation. (This has a spiritual meaning) Remember, some of the verses are symbolic.
And by the way lets not get out of the scope of thread.

And please think about this verse:

“And We have not sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (O Muhammad), except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a folk who believe.” 16:64
Question: So, why God sent Quran?
"To explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ"

“And be not like a woman who breaks into untwisted strands the yarn which she has spun, after it has become strong. Nor take your oaths to practise deception between yourselves, lest one party should be more numerous than another: for Allah will test you by this; and on the Day of Judgment He will certainly make clear to you (the truth of) that wherein ye disagree.” 16:92

Question: So, how God on the Day of Judgement would explain clearly those things in which mankind differ?

In the same way as He did before


'To every age its book,' (Surah 13 v. 39)


Am I twisting?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The way any logical argument works in such a scenario is as follows:

-You raise a claim that bible is free of errors

In order for me to refute it I need to produce a single example of an error / proof of tampering. That is sufficient for you to have to go back to the working table and produce something new.

Am I speaking non-sense? Everything else would be simply off-topic. More importantly, I outlined that me being Muslim and you being Bahai only have the common ground of logical reasoning. We cannot reason with the Holy Quran as you would have to consider it an "older edition" of a testament. Now if you want to purely stay within the Quran and argue that Quran testifies Bible as infallible then you are welcome to and I will entertain such arguments.

So far your arguments from the Quran are not positive proofs, rather they are rejections of statements raised by others. That would not be a positive proof of your claim. Negation of something does not entail proof of another.

Does it make sense? Do you understand why me answering an array of questions will not get you any closer to a resolution?

No, I do not agree with your logic.
If you write an exam, and there are 100 questions. You make only one minor mistake. Does it prove, you failed the exam? Does it prove you have not answered other questions?
another example: You write a Book. it has 400 pages. You made only one minor mistake. Does it mean your Book is corrupted?
Be fair.

And you did not answer my 4 questions.

Think about the following verses of Quran:

“To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute” 5:48

 

[Rational_Mind]

No, I do not agree with your logic.
If you write an exam, and there are 100 questions. You make only one minor mistake. Does it prove, you failed the exam? Does it prove you have not answered other questions?
another example: You write a Book. it has 400 pages. You made only one minor mistake. Does it mean your Book is corrupted?
Be fair.

And you did not answer my 4 questions.

Think about the following verses of Quran:

“To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute” 5:48

I think I covered your questions or maybe I missed them. Can you please list them 1 through 4. This thread is out of control.

Also, if you do not agree with the logical reasoning then you have a serious issue with understanding logic. We are not talking about a test. We are talking about arguments (not the fighting type) the logical type.

A proposition is said to be a contradiction if its truth value is F
for any assignment of truth values to its components. Example:
The proposition p ∧ ¬p is a contradiction.

Hence, if you raise a claim that all cats are black then I only need to produce one white cat to prove it false. This is a proper analogy, the other one you produced is faulty. Please try to understand.

Do you want to open up a new thread? I cannot keep track of this. Way too many discussions going around here.