Does the Qur'an Deny the Crucifixion of Jesus?

[loverOfTruth]

You are confusing. Those statements regarding Crucification, complete each other. They are not contgradicting.
Moreover, even if there are minor discrepencies, that does not mean corruption.
That's like you have some Sahih hadithes, that are a little different from each other. But Bible is alot more accurate than Moslem Hadithes. Those Authors of Bible were inspired by God. Each one later wrote what He saw in His visions, as complete as He could.

Keep saying what you will against scholarly accepted evidences I have shown you ... no matter how many times you repeat it, it won't make it true.

Also, note that Qur'an is our primary Scripture not Hadith.

 

[loverOfTruth]

If you claim, there is no original bible exists, you have no way to show the Bible today is different from original one.




What you are missing, as soon as the Message is lost, God sent His next Messenger. Not waiting for 600 years!
Moreover, missing message can be due to adding false interpretations, but not neccesarily changing the accual Text.




It has nothing to do with our discussion.



What you are missing, is that, for God to Test His Servents, He gives the Proper guidance. Then whoever us active the opposite of Guidance, is failing the Test.
The Problem with your view is that, If the was no Proper guidance for 600 years, then how could those people be tested?



Ok.




There is no verse in Quran that says, the Torah and Injil became corrupted. It is talking about additions of false interpretations of Injil and Torah Books.



This is not related to my questions.




No, you are comparing to unrelated things. That is Falacy.



This has nothing to do with this discussion.

The verse says "Seal" does not say last.



Just because you feel frustrated and have no answer, does not mean, it is a silly question.
God gave Quran to ponder on its verses. That means you ask questions untill you find the answer.
So, you are saying opposite of Quran.




No, It is not the same Question. You did not understand my question.

Between Noah and Moses were many many other Prophets. So, your example, does not work here.

Once again all I heard was 'it is not related' and 'it is not the same' :run:

 

[Rational_Mind]

You are confusing. Those statements regarding Crucification, complete each other. They are not contgradicting.
Moreover, even if there are minor discrepencies, that does not mean corruption.
That's like you have some Sahih hadithes, that are a little different from each other. But Bible is alot more accurate than Moslem Hadithes. Those Authors of Bible were inspired by God. Each one later wrote what He saw in His visions, as complete as He could.

You can't be serious here. I know that western scholars who are not Muslims or Christians have themselves said the complete opposite of your statement. There are CONCRETE PROOFS showing that contrary the tampering done that was both intentional and unintentional to the bible.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Keep saying what you will against scholarly accepted evidences I have shown you ... no matter how many times you repeat it, it won't make it true.

Well, I gave you the reasons. My point holds, since you are unable to reply to them.

Also, note that Qur'an is our primary Scripture not Hadith.

I know that. Why do you ask me to note something when I constantly pointed out that before?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You can't be serious here. I know that western scholars who are not Muslims or Christians have themselves said the complete opposite of your statement. There are CONCRETE PROOFS showing that contrary the tampering done that was both intentional and unintentional to the bible.

Not really. Christians never agree Bible is corrupted
If you can answer those questions.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Once again all I heard was 'it is not related' and 'it is not the same' :run:

That's not a proper discussion. You were unable to make your points. Think about it!

Here I put the Question again:
You have said:

The Keyword here is TEST.

What you are missing, is that, for God to Test His Servents, He gives the Proper guidance. Then whoever is acting the opposite of Guidance, is failing the Test.
The Problem with your view is that, If there was no Proper guidance for 600 years, then how could those people were tested? According to what standard?

 

[loverOfTruth]

That's not a proper discussion. You were unable to make your points. Think about it!

Here I put the Question again:
You have said:

What you are missing, is that, for God to Test His Servents, He gives the Proper guidance. Then whoever is acting the opposite of Guidance, is failing the Test.
The Problem with your view is that, If there was no Proper guidance for 600 years, then how could those people were tested? According to what standard?

You probably didn't get what the TEST is all about. So even though the Bible as a whole is corrupted, there is enough of the Truth remains in it to believe that God is One and the coming of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). And the TEST is(when some people changed the Bible for their personal gains) for the real followers of Jesus when shown that TRUTH with evidence, do they still keep saying God has Son or Son is God or do they accept the Truth as you can see there are still some Christians remaining who believe in oneness of God and that Jesus as Prophet (even early Christians believed that). Those who see that truth will eventually follow the Qur'an which confirms and completes the Message.

Here's the proof of what I stated : How the Bible Led Me to Islam

Also, note there is approximately 500 years between Moses and David and 1000 years between Solomon and Jesus etc..

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You probably didn't get what the TEST is all about. So even though the Bible as a whole is corrupted, there is enough of the Truth remains in it to believe that God is One and the coming of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). And the TEST is(when some people changed the Bible for their personal gains) for the real followers of Jesus when shown that TRUTH with evidence, do they still keep saying God has Son or Son is God or do they accept the Truth as you can see there are still some Christians remaining who believe in oneness of God and that Jesus as Prophet (even early Christians believed that). Those who see that truth will eventually follow the Qur'an which confirms and completes the Message.

Here's the proof of what I stated : [youtube]IYMKQKSV0bY[/youtube]
How the Bible Led Me to Islam

Also, note there is approximately 500 years between Moses and David and 1000 years between Solomon and Jesus etc..

For the most part, you are contradicting yourself.
On one hand you are saying: " the Bible as a whole is corrupted", and on another hand you are saying: "there is enough of the Truth remains in it to believe that God is One and the coming of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)"

There is no verse in Quran that says Injil and Torah are corrupted. There are a few verses that are refering to "Specific" subjects, and those are about false interpretations of Bible.
There is no verse in Quran that says, the verses of Bible regarding Crucification of Christ are corrupted.
Please remember, we should not add to Quran.
The Quran confirms Jesus did not have an earthly father so Jesus is God's Son spiritually. What Quran rejects is the idea of God having a physical Son, as this is what many Christians believe.

Also, note there is approximately 500 years between Moses and David and 1000 years between Solomon and Jesus etc..

Ok, but what is your point? I am not the one who says Bible is corrupted. If you are saying Bible is corrupted, you need to justify how those people were left with a corrupted Book, while God who is powerful, was very easy for Him to send an Angel and Choose a new Messenger, to give people the "UnCorrupted" Book again. Are you saying God was Powerless to do that?

 

[Rational_Mind]

Ok, but what is your point? I am not the one who says Bible is corrupted. If you are saying Bible is corrupted, you need to justify how those people were left with a corrupted Book, while God who is powerful, was very easy for Him to send an Angel and Choose a new Messenger, to give people the "UnCorrupted" Book again. Are you saying God was Powerless to do that?

You are confused here. When people are sent a messenger and they corrupt the teachings there is usually a portion of them of have gone astray. There were other Christians who did not go astray and did not commit such things. An example of them is given as the People of the Cave who were Monotheistic Christians. They were brutally tortured for their beliefs. God did not give up on them. The people who corrupted the books were rightfully punished due to their own actions. It greated burdens and trouble and torment for them. When God sees that everything is about to die out then he out of mercy sends a Messenger to people who are not deserving of being saved. That is the mercy of Allah (swt). This story is related in the Holy Quran in speaking of how Allah sustains the earth and brings it life after death. This is exactly the same in spiritual sense. If you think that after every religion goes astray for a moment Allah (swt) sends a messenger then you are very confused. It is when reformation cannot be done through any other means a Messenger of Allah (swt) is raised. Like Prophets were raised for Bani Israel (People of Moses(as)) similarly Mujaddid were raised in the Ummah of the Holy Prophet (saw) to keep faith on the right path. And we see that these people always were victorious in bringing back the light of God to to people and bringing them back to the true teachings.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are confused here. When people are sent a messenger and they corrupt the teachings there is usually a portion of them of have gone astray.

In case of Christians, you are assuming their Book is corrupted. This is an assumption to begin with. First prove this then assume.

There were other Christians who did not go astray and did not commit such things.

That shows, the Bible is not corrupted. As you admit some Christians did not go astray. It shows, the Bible is a guidance. If it is misinterpreted then, people go astray.

An example of them is given as the People of the Cave who were Monotheistic Christians. They were brutally tortured for their beliefs. God did not give up on them.

Right

The people who corrupted the books were rightfully punished due to their own actions.

Who corrupted their Book? when was it?

It greated burdens and trouble and torment for them. When God sees that everything is about to die out then he out of mercy sends a Messenger to people who are not deserving of being saved.

Right. And if you say, Bible was corrupted from about 600 years before Muhammad, then those people would have died out, as they had a corrupted Book. So, God would have sent them a Messenger. The fact that God did not send them a Messenger right away, proves they had a guidance. That guidance came from their Book, as their Major source that they believed in.

If you think that after every religion goes astray for a moment Allah (swt) sends a messenger then you are very confused.

Please clear what are u talking about?
Are you saying it is possible that a Religion goes astray before the people go astray?

It is when reformation cannot be done through any other means a Messenger of Allah (swt) is raised. Like Prophets were raised for Bani Israel (People of Moses(as)) similarly Mujaddid were raised in the Ummah of the Holy Prophet (saw) to keep faith on the right path. And we see that these people always were victorious in bringing back the light of God to to people and bringing them back to the true teachings.

Well, let's make our discussion limited to from the time of Jesus to Muhammad, and still justify what you are saying.

 

[Rational_Mind]

In case of Christians, you are assuming their Book is corrupted. This is an assumption to begin with. First prove this then assume.



That shows, the Bible is not corrupted. As you admit some Christians did not go astray. It shows, the Bible is a guidance. If it is misinterpreted then, people go astray.


Right



Who corrupted their Book? when was it?



Right. And if you say, Bible was corrupted from about 600 years before Muhammad, then those people would have died out, as they had a corrupted Book. So, God would have sent them a Messenger. The fact that God did not send them a Messenger right away, proves they had a guidance. That guidance came from their Book, as their Major source that they believed in.



Please clear what are u talking about?
Are you saying it is possible that a Religion goes astray before the people go astray?




Well, let's make our discussion limited to from the time of Jesus to Muhammad, and still justify what you are saying.

Please explain which Gospels are 100% accurate. I only need to show one proof of a change or error made in script and you will have to accept that I am correct. Also tell me why certain books are uncorrupted and others are if you feel such. Let us investigate as unbias people who want to see whether a book is corrupted. Let us ignore what our forefathers or anyone else for that matter has said. That is the only common ground!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please explain which Gospels are 100% accurate.

What you are confusing is inaccuracy versus corrupted.
Baha'i Writings states that, the Bible fundamentally is legitimate and is a guidance, but there are few very minor inaccuracies in it.

I only need to show one proof of a change or error made in script and you will have to accept that I am correct.

Not really. even if you can show one inaccuracy, and IF you can prove it, then, you just show one inaccuracy.
Even the Christians agree there are perhaps very minor inaccuracies in it. But by no means that indicates corruption.


Moreover, "fundamentally", the 4 Gospels Agree.

Also tell me why certain books are uncorrupted and others are if you feel such.

Which Books are corrupted?
IF any of the Books get corrupted and cause a people go astray, surely God would send His Messenger or Prophet to guide people. But in case of Injil and Torah, that did not happen!

Let us investigate as unbias people who want to see whether a book is corrupted. Let us ignore what our forefathers or anyone else for that matter has said. That is the only common ground!

Agree. So, let's think about it.
Still my main questions which were 4, are not anwered. Why? because Bible is not corrupted.

 

[Rational_Mind]

What you are confusing is inaccuracy versus corrupted.
Baha'i Writings states that, the Bible fundamentally is legitimate and is a guidance, but there are few very minor inaccuracies in it.




Not really. even if you can show one inaccuracy, and IF you can prove it, then, you just show one inaccuracy.
Even the Christians agree there are perhaps very minor inaccuracies in it. But by no means that indicates corruption.


Moreover, "fundamentally", the 4 Gospels Agree.



Which Books are corrupted?
IF any of the Books get corrupted and cause a people go astray, surely God would send His Messenger or Prophet to guide people. But in case of Injil and Torah, that did not happen!


Agree. So, let's think about it.
Still my main questions which were 4, are not anwered. Why? because Bible is not corrupted.

You are indulging in fallacies. You have agreed with being non-bias. Could you kindly read up on common fallacies and clear them out. In any argument, the person who claims to have something that is not altered would lose by proof of one alteration. By showing one tampering with it you have to correct yourself. If you bring a product in for warranty they only have to show you one marking of its tampering to prove it is now void. Similarly I should only need to produce one example and it should suffice.

Second, why do you feel 4 books over all other books recorded are most accurate. Please don't say because the writers claim to be inspired by God. It may seem you don't know what you are getting into. Why were 4 picked over all others? What moment in history, and why?

Let re scope from inaccuracies to corruption. I am defining corruption as something being changed from the original. We are trying to see if the Bible is unmolested and pure.

Please restate your 4 points. I thought I had covered them. (Also look up what fallacy you committed at the end)

 

[loverOfTruth]

For the most part, you are contradicting yourself.
On one hand you are saying: " the Bible as a whole is corrupted", and on another hand you are saying: "there is enough of the Truth remains in it to believe that God is One and the coming of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)"

There is no contradiction in my statement. Let me spell it out for you. If there is Book that has been changed/altered/corrupted 90% - that book as a whole will be considered corrupted. But that still does not take anything from the fact that 10% of that book still contains the Truth. But as I have shown over and over again even with the Bible that exist today - there remains unambiguous / clear statements about God being One (the Guidance) over ambiguous and convoluted statements regarding divinity of Jesus(pbuh). So that is the TEST for the people to use their brain and accept the Truth over falsehood.

There is no verse in Quran that says Injil and Torah are corrupted. There are a few verses that are refering to "Specific" subjects, and those are about false interpretations of Bible.
There is no verse in Quran that says, the verses of Bible regarding Crucification of Christ are corrupted.
Please remember, we should not add to Quran.
The Quran confirms Jesus did not have an earthly father so Jesus is God's Son spiritually. What Quran rejects is the idea of God having a physical Son, as this is what many Christians believe.

Qur'an clearly states what is wrong in the Bible - but a non-Muslim who doesn't believe in the Qur'an will not give any value to the arguments presented in the Qur'an. That's why I have shown enough evidences from Biblical scholars regarding the corruption here :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3127266-post53.html

Ok, but what is your point? I am not the one who says Bible is corrupted. If you are saying Bible is corrupted, you need to justify how those people were left with a corrupted Book, while God who is powerful, was very easy for Him to send an Angel and Choose a new Messenger, to give people the "UnCorrupted" Book again. Are you saying God was Powerless to do that?

Again I see that you have hard time grasping the concept of God and His wisdom. Had Allah willed, He would have done it - He did not do it as per His divine wisdom/plan as part of the TEST just like when Allah(God) allows an innocent child to be murdered and suffered by evil people.

Why did God wait 500 years after Moses to send David? Why did God wait 1000 years to send Jesus after Solomon ? And if people were perfectly following God's message between those times, why did God send another messenger at all ? Why do God let's Atheists stay misguided ? Why don't God send an Angel to everyone individually and make them believe ? I guess you better study more on God, purpose of Revelation, Divine Wisdon/Plan etc. before discussing this topic again.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Second, why do you feel 4 books over all other books recorded are most accurate. Please don't say because the writers claim to be inspired by God. It may seem you don't know what you are getting into. Why were 4 picked over all others? What moment in history, and why?

That is not relavent to our discussions in a direct way. Neither you have answered my 4 questions.
But to the best of my knowledge these four Books have been the ones the Christians used.
If the testamony of Book is not enough that it is from God, how did you even accept Quran?

Let re scope from inaccuracies to corruption. I am defining corruption as something being changed from the original. We are trying to see if the Bible is unmolested and pure.

I said minor Inaccuracies, but not fundamental beliefs.
Minor inaccuracies, could be for example, if
I tell you: "I will go and buy some bread" now you write: "I will buy some bread"
Both of them give the same message still.
So, in Bible there could be very few things like this, but that does not mean the Message is corrupted.

Specially all 4 Gospels agree He was Crucified.

Please restate your 4 points. I thought I had covered them. (Also look up what fallacy you committed at the end)

It was in my post for LoverOfTruth. Please see just about 6 posts before...

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is no contradiction in my statement.

Really?

Let me spell it out for you.

Sure, Let's see....

If there is Book that has been changed/altered/corrupted 90% - that book as a whole will be considered corrupted.

That's right so far...

But that still does not take anything from the fact that 10% of that book still contains the Truth.

That is right so far....

But as I have shown over and over again even with the Bible that exist today - there remains unambiguous / clear statements about God being One (the Guidance) over ambiguous and convoluted statements regarding divinity of Jesus(pbuh). So that is the TEST for the people to use their brain and accept the Truth over falsehood.

No, God does not leave His Book corrupted, just to test people.
Your view does not exist in Quran. There is no verse in Quran or even Hadithes, that God, leaves a corrupted Book to test people.
What Quran says, God gives His Book as a Guidance. By His Book, He lays down the standard, by which false is known from the Truth. Thus, by that standard, people are tested. whoso acts against it, is considered transgressor.

Qur'an clearly states what is wrong in the Bible - but a non-Muslim who doesn't believe in the Qur'an will not give any value to the arguments presented in the Qur'an.

Please support your claim by verses of Quran.
There are verses in Quran that talk about "Modification" and alteration by the Religious Leaders, however, those refer ONLY to particular cases.
One of them is concerning the penalty of adultery.
Which the Quran reveals "They pervert the text of the Word of God." Quran 4:44
It is clear, in that instance, by perverting the Text is meant "Misinterpretation" as the Torah still contains the verse that says punishment for adultery is death by stone.
Another example is: "A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so." Quran 2:75
This verse, also indicate that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words in the Bible are changed.

Another example,: "Woe unto those who, with their own hands, transcribe the Book corruptly, and then say: ‘This is from God,’ that they may sell it for some mean price." Quran 2:79

This verse was revealed regarding the Jewish leaders who were living at the time of Muhammad. For they had written false interpretations to refute the claims of Muhammad.
None of them says the actual Text in the Bible was modified.
Moreover, there is no verse in Quran that says the Bible was corrupted with reference to Crucification of Christ.

That's why I have shown enough evidences from Biblical scholars regarding the corruption here :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3127266-post53.html

We are discussing here. I don't care about your links.

Again I see that you have hard time grasping the concept of God and His wisdom. Had Allah willed, He would have done it - He did not do it as per His divine wisdom/plan as part of the TEST just like when Allah(God) allows an innocent child to be murdered and suffered by evil people.

You are comparing two unrelated things. If that was the case, God did not have to send Quran. He could continue testing people the same way as you claim He did before Muhammad.
There is no verse in Quran that suggests God left those people with a corrupted Book to test them. Please do not make it up.

Why did God wait 500 years after Moses to send David?

Why did God wait 1000 years to send Jesus after Solomon ? And if people were perfectly following God's message between those times, why did God send another messenger at all ? Why do God let's Atheists stay misguided ? Why don't God send an Angel to everyone individually and make them believe ? I guess you better study more on God, purpose of Revelation, Divine Wisdon/Plan etc. before discussing this topic again.

That's not what I am asking.
But to make a reply. God sends His Messengers whenever guidance is required. Whenever, the Message is forgotten or distorted. Whenever, people need a prophet to show them the right way.
If The Bible was corrupted, God would have sent a Messenger to tell them so. Why waiting 600 years.
It seems you have no real answer. Just be fair in your judgement.

 

[Rational_Mind]

For the most part, you are contradicting yourself.
On one hand you are saying: " the Bible as a whole is corrupted", and on another hand you are saying: "there is enough of the Truth remains in it to believe that God is One and the coming of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)"

There is no verse in Quran that says Injil and Torah are corrupted. There are a few verses that are refering to "Specific" subjects, and those are about false interpretations of Bible.
There is no verse in Quran that says, the verses of Bible regarding Crucification of Christ are corrupted.
Please remember, we should not add to Quran.
The Quran confirms Jesus did not have an earthly father so Jesus is God's Son spiritually. What Quran rejects is the idea of God having a physical Son, as this is what many Christians believe.



Ok, but what is your point? I am not the one who says Bible is corrupted. If you are saying Bible is corrupted, you need to justify how those people were left with a corrupted Book, while God who is powerful, was very easy for Him to send an Angel and Choose a new Messenger, to give people the "UnCorrupted" Book again. Are you saying God was Powerless to do that?

Is this the relevant post I need to reply to?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

RationalMind:

Please consider my last post for LoverOfTruth First. Then These are my 4 questions:

if indeed that is the case and after Jesus left, His Book was also corrupted, then what did those people have to be guided with from the time of Jesus to Muhammad? How could God, who is caring and loving, left them for 600 years without proper guidance? Why God didn't send them a prophet earlier to tell them the Truth and give them the Book for their guidance? Why waiting for 600 years and then sending Muhammad?


What answer Islam have for these questions? If you are going to reply, I demand you a complete answer to above 4 questions.
Please support your answeres with verses of Quran, or known Hadithes whenever possible

 

[Rational_Mind]

RationalMind:
What answer Islam have for these questions? If you are going to reply, I demand you a complete answer to above 4 questions.
Please support your answeres with verses of Quran, or known Hadithes whenever possible

Are you saying the word of the Holy Quran and Hadith are a higher authority to you than Baha'i Writings? If this is such then what you request makes sense. If you want to discuss otherwise we must only stand on the common ground of logic and reasoning. If you are a Muslim then it makes sense for us to discuss on the Holy Quran and Hadith.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Are you saying the word of the Holy Quran and Hadith are a higher authority to you than Baha'i Writings?

I believe both Quran and Baha'i Scriptures are from God. But Baha'i Scriptures have come for this Age.

If this is such then what you request makes sense.

No,that is not the case.
I think you are a Moslem, and thus, our common ground would be Quran and authentic hadithes.

If you want to discuss otherwise we must only stand on the common ground of logic and reasoning.

Are you saying Quran and hadithes are not enough to make your point?
"Say, do you know better than Allah?" (Qur’an, 2:140)