Does the OT apply to modern day gentiles?

[Flankerl]

I'm sorry?
You seem a bit confused. Does a Gentile believe in the truth? Or is Judaism not the truth?

Does the Torah mention gentiles? If so, what was it referring to?

No, it doesn't mean "disbeliever". It just means someone who isn't Jewish. Even if the non-Jew believes in G-d, he would sill be called a gentile. From what I can see, the literal meaning of the word is "someone who is not of your clan". English translators used it to differentiate between Jews when they were translating the Tanach. I guess it stuck from tehre.

And I am not going to start quoting Torah because, well you are Muslim and I know how that would turn out.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And I am not going to start quoting Torah because, well you are Muslim and I know how that would turn out.

In other words, you do not wish to discuss it .. you just want to point out that a gentile/goy is a non-Jew..
I think that we all know that

I think that we also know that a kafir is a non-Muslim in the same way, whether you wish to deny it or not

 

[Flankerl]

In other words, you do not wish to discuss it .. you just want to point out that a gentile/goy is a non-Jew..
I think that we all know that

I think that we also know that a kafir is a non-Muslim in the same way, whether you wish to deny it or not

Actually there is a difference. Tumah made it clear. You ignore it. That's why I don't quote Torah.

 

[Tumah]

In other words, you do not wish to discuss it .. you just want to point out that a gentile/goy is a non-Jew..
I think that we all know that

I think that we also know that a kafir is a non-Muslim in the same way, whether you wish to deny it or not

"Kofer" would be the Jewish equivalent to the Arabic "kafir".

The term apostasy is derived from Ancient Greek: ἀποστάτης, meaning "rebellious"[2] (Hebrew: מרד‎‎.[3]) Equivalent expressions for apostate in Hebrew that are used by rabbinical scholars include mumar (מומר, literally "the one that was changed"), poshea Yisrael (פושע ישראל, literally, "transgressor of Israel"), and kofer (כופר, literally "denier").[3] Similar terms are meshumad (משומד, lit. "destroyed one"), one who has abandoned his faith, and min (מין) or epikoros (אפיקורוס), which denote the negation of God and Judaism, implying atheism.[3]
-Wikipedia
(in case you didn't believe me)​

It seems kind of silly to assume a Muslim would be more knowledgeable about Jewish terminology than a Jew, no?

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
It seems kind of silly to assume a Muslim would be more knowledgeable about Jewish terminology than a Jew, no?

Whatever you say..
wiki seems to agree with both of us .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile

"The term "gentiles" is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the Bible. The original words goy and ethnos refer to "peoples" or "nations" and is applied to both Israelites and non-Israelites in the Bible. However, in most biblical uses, it denotes nations that are politically distinct from Israel. Since most of the nations at the time of the Bible were "heathens", goy or gentile became synonymous with heathen, although their literal translation is distinct"

 

[Tumah]

Whatever you say..
wiki seems to agree with both of us .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile

"The term "gentiles" is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the Bible. The original words goy and ethnos refer to "peoples" or "nations" and is applied to both Israelites and non-Israelites in the Bible. However, in most biblical uses, it denotes nations that are politically distinct from Israel. Since most of the nations at the time of the Bible were "heathens", goy or gentile became synonymous with heathen, although their literal translation is distinct"

A heathen is a derogatory way of saying someone who doesn't follow one of the Abrahamic religions. In the context of the word gentile - one who doesn't follow Judaism. In other words, isn't Jewish. Except gentile doesn't have the derogatory connotation, which is why you may find non-Jews referring to themselves as gentiles. Both goy and gentile in modern parlance mean someone who isn't Jewish. You'll usually find it more common for Jews who are more accustomed to using Hebrew words, to use "goy". While "gentile" is more common when speaking to non-Jews or non-Jews themselves speaking to Jews in relation to Jews.

Disbelief in Islam or the rejection of Jewish beliefs (as opposed to nationality as above) is kafir/kofer. Its possible from a Jewish perspective at least, for a gentile to not be a kofer and for a Jew to be one. One is about his nationality, the other - his belief. If a gentile converts to Judaism, he's no longer a gentile - but if afterwards he becomes a kofer, he doesn't revert to being a gentile.

Look we don't have to play semantic games. Just google "gentile" and see all the articles that pop up for you.

 

[ukok102nak]

:rofl: I would suggest another Jew violate the Shabbos.
but that is another story so lets stay on the topic and
read your bible to find what is the truth behind the word gentile

thats why
we share this verses
as it is written
:read:
Genesis: 10. 1. Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2. The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3. And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4. And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5. By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

~;> as they say
so as it is written
:read:
Genesis 25:1
Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 Jokshan became the father of Sheba, and Dedan. The sons of Dedan were Asshurim, Letushim, and Leummim.
4 The sons of Midian: Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac,
6 but to the sons of Abraham's concubines, Abraham gave gifts. He sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, to the east country.
7 These are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived: one hundred seventy-five years.
8 Abraham gave up the spirit, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years, and was gathered to his people.
9 Isaac and Ishmael, his sons, buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron, the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre,
10 the field which Abraham purchased of the children of Heth. Abraham was buried there with Sarah, his wife.
11 It happened after the death of Abraham that God blessed Isaac, his son. Isaac lived by Beer Lahai Roi.
12 Now this is the history of the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore to Abraham.
13 These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to the order of their birth: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebaioth, then Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam,
14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa,
15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their villages, and by their encampments: twelve princes, according to their nations.
17 These are the years of the life of Ishmael: one hundred thirty-seven years. He gave up the spirit and died, and was gathered to his people.
18 They lived from Havilah to Shur that is before Egypt, as you go toward Assyria. He lived opposite all his relatives.
19 This is the history of the generations of Isaac, Abraham's son. Abraham became the father of Isaac.
20 Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Paddan Aram, the sister of Laban the Syrian, to be his wife.
21 Isaac entreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren. The Lord was entreated by him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 The children struggled together within her. She said, "If it be so, why do I live?" She went to inquire of the Lord.
23 The Lord said to her,
Two nations are in your womb.
Two peoples will be separated from your body.
The one people will be stronger than the other people.
The elder will serve the younger.

also
as a gentile my self ~;> yes its me and
not that joker :rofl: a brethren of ours
but as one with faith and belief unto
what is good and cannot lie
we share this verses again just for a simple reason . . . to be fair unto what is written in the scripture itself
:read: (the bible itself so that one may understand what is really written in there)

Revelation of John 11:1
A reed like a rod was given to me. Someone said, "Rise and measure God's temple, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 Leave out the court which is outside of the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations. They will tread the holy city under foot for forty-two months.
3 I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands, standing before the Lord of the earth.
5 If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. If anyone desires to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
6 These have the power to shut up the sky, that it may not rain during the days of their prophecy. They have power over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them.
8 Their dead bodies will be in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 From among the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations people will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be placed in a tomb.
10 Those who dwell on the earth rejoice over them, and they will be glad. They will give gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 After the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. Great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 I heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" They went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies saw them.
13 In that houre there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe comes quickly.

now
who are this two witnesses which is been said that
they will prophesy one thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
as someone said this things
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands, standing before the Lord of the earth.
according to this passage

. ... just askin
if we me say so ... .


:ty:


godbless
unto always

 

[Desert Snake]

Doesn't make sense to ask a rabbi/judaism, what a Jesus adherent or a Christ follower, should do concerning the Sabbath.

the premise makes no sense, hence no serious answer

 

[ukok102nak]

Doesn't make sense to ask a rabbi/judaism, what a Jesus adherent or a Christ follower, should do concerning the Sabbath.

the premise makes no sense, hence no serious answer

~;> it does so sometimes we may learn about their opinions regarding what the OP states

though in the sense that
there is also a prophesy about the gentiles
concerning unto what is written in the scripture
so as it is written
:read:
Isaiah 49:5
And now said יהוה – who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Ya‛aqoḇ back to Him, though Yisra’ĕl is not gathered to Him, yet I am esteemed in the eyes of יהוה, and My Elohim has been My strength –
6 and He says, “Shall it be a small matter for You to be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Ya‛aqoḇ, and to bring back the preserved ones of Yisra’ĕl? And I shall give You as a light to the gentiles, to be My deliverance to the ends of the earth!”
7 Thus said יהוה, the Redeemer of Yisra’ĕl, their Set-apart One, to the despised, to the loathed One of the nation, to the Servant of rulers, “Sovereigns shall see and arise, rulers also shall bow themselves, because of יהוה who is steadfast, the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl. And He has chosen You!”
8 Thus said יהוה, “In a favourable time I shall answer You, and in the day of deliverance I shall help You – and I guard You and give You for a covenant of the people, to restore the earth, to cause them to inherit the ruined inheritances,
9 to say to the prisoners, ‘Go out,’ to those who are in darkness, ‘Show yourselves.’ “Let them feed on the ways, and let their pasture be on all bare hills.
10 “They shall not hunger nor thirst, neither heat or sun strike them, for He who has compassion on them shall lead them, even by fountains of water guide them.
11 “And I shall make all My mountains a way, and My highways raised up.
12 “See, these come from far away, and see, those from the north and the west, and these from the land of Sinim.”


. ... just for a thought
if we may say so ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[Tarheeler]

Doesn't make sense to ask a rabbi/judaism, what a Jesus adherent or a Christ follower, should do concerning the Sabbath.

the premise makes no sense, hence no serious answer

It makes perfect sense when one wants to know the Jewish answer to the question.
Not everyone is so narrow-minded as to think that their POV is the only one that exists.

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
Disbelief in Islam or the rejection of Jewish beliefs (as opposed to nationality as above) is kafir/kofer. Its possible from a Jewish perspective at least, for a gentile to not be a kofer and for a Jew to be one. One is about his nationality, the other - his belief. If a gentile converts to Judaism, he's no longer a gentile - but if afterwards he becomes a kofer, he doesn't revert to being a gentile.

Now you bring nationality into it..
Goy, as used in the Torah isn't really about nationality, even though the literal meaning may mean that. It's about heathens ie. idolators

 

[Tarheeler]

Now you bring nationality into it..
Goy, as used in the Torah isn't really about nationality, even though the literal meaning may mean that. It's about heathens ie. idolators

Awesome. Yet another person who thinks he knows how to educate us on what our Bible really means.

 

[Flankerl]

It seems to be an ongoing theme among certain people on RF.

 

[Tumah]

Now you bring nationality into it..
Goy, as used in the Torah isn't really about nationality, even though the literal meaning may mean that. It's about heathens ie. idolators

It literally has no other meaning as used in the Torah.
Deut. 4:34
"Or has a god performed a miracle to come to take a nation (goy - referring to Israelites) from the midst of a nation (goy - referring to Egyptians) with signs and wonders..."

Let me guess. Its because I listen to my lust that I refuse to see the truth of the word. If only I would see the truth and become Muslim, then I'd know what goy really means...

 

[muhammad_isa]

It literally has no other meaning as used in the Torah.
Deut. 4:34
"Or has a god performed a miracle to come to take a nation (goy - referring to Israelites) from the midst of a nation (goy - referring to Egyptians) with signs and wonders..."

Let me guess. Its because I listen to my lust that I refuse to see the truth of the word. If only I would see the truth and become Muslim, then I'd know what goy really means...

There's no need for sarcasm .. .. it clearly has different meanings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goy
Maimonides defines plain goy in his Mishneh Torah as a worshipper of idolatry, as he explains, "Whenever we say plainly 'goy', we mean a worshipper of idolatry"

 

[Tumah]

There's no need for sarcasm .. .. it clearly has different meanings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goy
Maimonides defines plain goy in his Mishneh Torah as a worshipper of idolatry, as he explains, "Whenever we say plainly 'goy', we mean a worshipper of idolatry"

Yes, in the context of the Laws about wine every non-Jew is suspected of being an idol worshiper and its only necessary to specify when that's not the case (as he does when referring to Resident Alients there). He doesn't mean that the word means "idol worshiper", he means in that context, the understanding is a suspicion of idol worship. The word "we" is not found in Maimonides' language, that was from the translator and his meaning by "we" is "the author (ie. Maimonides)" not "we" as in "Jews".

And clearly, Maimonides is explaining his usage of the word in the context of his codification of laws where there is an assumption that any given non-Jew is idol worshiping - and not that the actual meaning of the word is that. Which is why, just one law earlier he writes:

"And so any goy that doesn't worship idols, like those Ishmaelites (Muslims), their wine is prohibited to drink, but permitted to derive benefit from. And so taught all the Geonim. But the Christians, they are idol worshipers and wine that they touch is prohibited to derive benefit from."

At some point you need to ask yourself which of the two of us might know more about Jewish phrases. I'm not saying it has to be now. But you may want to start considering it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Modern usage
In modern Hebrew and Yiddish the word goy is the standard term for a gentile. In English, the use of the word goy can be controversial. It is sometimes used pejoratively to refer to a non-Jew, but many see it as no more insulting that the term gentile.

The term shabbos goy (literally "Sabbath Gentile") refers to a non-Jew who performs duties that Jewish law forbids a Jew from performing on the Sabbath, such as turning on and off lights.

...
At some point you need to ask yourself which of the two of us might know more about Jewish phrases. I'm not saying it has to be now. But you may want to start considering it.

Whatever..

Anyhow .. let's stop splitting hairs, shall we? A gentile is a non-Jew .. if Judaism is the religion that God has prescribed for mankind, then disbeliever (in truth) is not far off the same thing.
You might see the Jewish faith as being "a family affair", but it makes no sense to me that God favours one believer over another except due to sincerity/piety

 

[Desert Snake]

~;> it does so sometimes we may learn about their opinions regarding what the OP states

though in the sense that
there is also a prophesy about the gentiles
concerning unto what is written in the scripture
so as it is written
:read:
Isaiah 49:5
And now said יהוה – who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Ya‛aqoḇ back to Him, though Yisra’ĕl is not gathered to Him, yet I am esteemed in the eyes of יהוה, and My Elohim has been My strength –
6 and He says, “Shall it be a small matter for You to be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Ya‛aqoḇ, and to bring back the preserved ones of Yisra’ĕl? And I shall give You as a light to the gentiles, to be My deliverance to the ends of the earth!”
7 Thus said יהוה, the Redeemer of Yisra’ĕl, their Set-apart One, to the despised, to the loathed One of the nation, to the Servant of rulers, “Sovereigns shall see and arise, rulers also shall bow themselves, because of יהוה who is steadfast, the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl. And He has chosen You!”
8 Thus said יהוה, “In a favourable time I shall answer You, and in the day of deliverance I shall help You – and I guard You and give You for a covenant of the people, to restore the earth, to cause them to inherit the ruined inheritances,
9 to say to the prisoners, ‘Go out,’ to those who are in darkness, ‘Show yourselves.’ “Let them feed on the ways, and let their pasture be on all bare hills.
10 “They shall not hunger nor thirst, neither heat or sun strike them, for He who has compassion on them shall lead them, even by fountains of water guide them.
11 “And I shall make all My mountains a way, and My highways raised up.
12 “See, these come from far away, and see, those from the north and the west, and these from the land of Sinim.”


. ... just for a thought
if we may say so ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

I already know all this context, but at the same time, you have to consider the context of the question, etc. The question 'as is', is not going to give any good answer to the original query. So, the semantics are sort of pointless.

 

[Flankerl]

if Judaism is the religion that God has prescribed for mankind

Well he didn't.

You really know nothing about Judaism. Quite funny.

 

[Tumah]

Modern usage
In modern Hebrew and Yiddish the word goy is the standard term for a gentile. In English, the use of the word goy can be controversial. It is sometimes used pejoratively to refer to a non-Jew, but many see it as no more insulting that the term gentile.

The term shabbos goy (literally "Sabbath Gentile") refers to a non-Jew who performs duties that Jewish law forbids a Jew from performing on the Sabbath, such as turning on and off lights.

Notice how your quote says exactly what I said in the beginning: Gentile is not a derogatory word as is kafir.

Incidentally:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/obama-elvis-and-5-other-famous-shabbos-goys/

Whatever..

Anyhow .. let's stop splitting hairs, shall we? A gentile is a non-Jew .. if Judaism is the religion that God has prescribed for mankind, then disbeliever (in truth) is not far off the same thing.

Great! So since in Judaism a person doesn't need to be Jewish in order to be a "believer", you can finally start to realize after two ridiculous days of trying to teach me about Judaism, that you're wrong.
A gentile can completely conform to Jewish beliefs and not be Jewish and this is acceptable and even laudable. You can be a goy without being a "kofer". Because gentile and goy do not mean the same thing as the Islamic kafir.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahidism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_toshav

You might see the Jewish faith as being "a family affair", but it makes no sense to me that God favours one believer over another except due to sincerity/piety

Kafir (Arabic: كافر‎‎ kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār; feminine كافرة kāfirah) is an Arabic term (from the root K-F-R "to cover") "unbeliever", or "disbeliever". It is used as a derogatory term.[1][2][3] The term[2] alludes to a person who rejects or disbelieves in God and the teachings of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad,[4] and denies the dominion and authority of God;[5] or otherwise does not heed the beliefs and prescriptions held by the religion of Islam.​

That kind of narrows down the playing field of "believer" doesn't it.