Does the Bible Contradict Itself ?

[PruePhillip]

But we do know. The date of the census of Quirinius is well known. And Herod died roughly ten years before that.

I can't comment. I am not into dates.
If I did try and was successful in validating something I just
know that those who challenged me would shift the goal
posts elsewhere.
The author of Luke (probably Luke the physician) was not an
eye witness to the events of the Gospels. He said he wanted
to put down what he received from others into an historic
narrative.
But then, dates can be interesting. I would love to know the
dates for the Exodus account.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can't comment. I am not into dates.
If I did try and was successful in validating something I just
know that those who challenged me would shift the goal
posts elsewhere.
The author of Luke (probably Luke the physician) was not an
eye witness to the events of the Gospels. He said he wanted
to put down what he received from others into an historic
narrative.
But then, dates can be interesting. I would love to know the
dates for the Exodus account.

Then you are as much as admitting that the Bible contradicts itself. You were the one that brought up Luke. If you had no clue you should have never mentioned the book

 

[PruePhillip]

Then you are as much as admitting that the Bible contradicts itself. You were the one that brought up Luke. If you had no clue you should have never mentioned the book

Yes, my issue is with variations/contradictions in the incidents. I don't know much about the dating - just not my area of interest.
Certainly some of the bible is BUILD AROUND CONTRADICTION. My favorite being the Messiah prophesied as being a Bethlehemite and of the lineage of David, yet apparently coming from Galilee where the Davidic line isn't supposed to be.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, my issue is with variations/contradictions in the incidents. I don't know much about the dating - just not my area of interest.
Certainly some of the bible is BUILD AROUND CONTRADICTION. My favorite being the Messiah prophesied as being a Bethlehemite and of the lineage of David, yet apparently coming from Galilee where the Davidic line isn't supposed to be.

From my understanding he did not fulfill any of the messianic prophecies which was why so many bogus ones were used.

 

[PruePhillip]

From my understanding he did not fulfill any of the messianic prophecies which was why so many bogus ones were used.

You need to explain what you mean. I don't understand.

 

[Kenny]

Jesus came into Jerusalem with how many animals?
One - a colt. Mark 11:7 Luke 19:3 5. And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it.
Two - a colt and an ***. Matthew 21:7. They brought the *** and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon.

them ≠ it​

But this isn't what the bible says. The Bible says:

ERV
Elhanan. 2 Samuel 21:19 19 . . . There was another battle with the Philistines, in Gob, and Elhanan, son of Jair from Bethlehem, killed Goliath of Gath

ASV
And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

AMP
There was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, a Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite, whose spear shaft was like a weaver’s beam.

AMPC
There was again war at Gob with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath the Gittite, whose spear shaft was like a weaver’s beam.

ESV
And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

GNT
There was another battle with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan son of Jair from Bethlehem killed Goliath from Gath, whose spear had a shaft as thick as the bar on a weaver's loom.

LEB
There was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob. And Elhanan the son of Jaare-Oregim, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like the beam of a weaver.

NASB
There was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

NLV
There was war with the Philistines again at Gob. And Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite. Goliath’s spear was like the heavy piece of wood used by a cloth-maker.
​

And so on.

.

Yes... the explanation was given. It is a matter of viewpoint. If you want to make it a point of contention to decide that the promise of the Messiah is a fable, then it will be for you. But for those who believe, it is the power of God unto salvation.

As I read the explanation, I find it acceptable and reasonable, and thus found restoration for my marriage, power for healing miracles and strength when what I face is beyond my ability.

 

[Kenny]

You are ignoring the contradictions in the nativity myth in Luke. When was Jesus born? What year?

And having a very limited flood causes all sorts of problems as well. There would be no need of an ark. Noah had close to a hundred year warning. All he had to do was walk away.

And how do you know it was only a local flood? And why is the year Jesus was born important to you?

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes... the explanation was given. It is a matter of viewpoint. If you want to make it a point of contention to decide that the promise of the Messiah is a fable, then it will be for you. But for those who believe, it is the power of God unto salvation.

As I read the explanation, I find it acceptable and reasonable, and thus found restoration for my marriage, power for healing miracles and strength when what I face is beyond my ability.

If you read the story of the Carthagian general Hannibal you will find two histories of the man. One by Polybius and one by Livy. Their accounts are not identical. They heard differing accounts, came to differing interpretations and so on. Doesn't mean Hannibal didn't exist, it just means no identical account of him exists.

 

[David T]

You might need to re-word this. Can't make sense of it.

The best way of putting it that regardless of the bible and independent of religion science or what we all think there is always a deeper narrative than the one that we present ourselves. Thats the old testament joseph narrative. No magic involved in that story and its not a guided by an intellect..

We cant in a sense soothsay our way into the future along by writing, math, science nor religion. Nature is a trancendental we specifically locally are not.

 

[Kenny]

If you read the story of the Carthagian general Hannibal you will find two histories of the man. One by Polybius and one by Livy. Their accounts are not identical. They heard differing accounts, came to differing interpretations and so on. Doesn't mean Hannibal didn't exist, it just means no identical account of him exists.

That is true... I'm just saying that the differences are explainable.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And how do you know it was only a local flood? And why is the year Jesus was born important to you?

I have a thread on that topic. But a worldwide flood would leave massive evidence for that event and there is only evidence for local floods that occurred at different times .

And when Jesus was born is important when the dates contradict each other.

 

[PruePhillip]

The best way of putting it that regardless of the bible and independent of religion science or what we all think there is always a deeper narrative than the one that we present ourselves. Thats the old testament joseph narrative. No magic involved in that story and its not a guided by an intellect..

We cant in a sense soothsay our way into the future along by writing, math, science nor religion. Nature is a trancendental we specifically locally are not.

Beautifully put. Thank you.
It says in 2 Thes that "God sends strong delusion." Jesus railed against the scribes and lawyers who represent the academically superior and legalistic minds. And he said of the Jews that these things were "hid from their eyes." That is because these people excused themselves from believing in this famous man because they didn't like the deeper truths He presented.

 

[Kenny]

I have a thread on that topic. But a worldwide flood would leave massive evidence for that event and there is only evidence for local floods that occurred at different times .

And when Jesus was born is important when the dates contradict each other.

I disagree... I believe that there is evidence, just that you have interpreted the evidence wrong.

It is hard to imagine the possibility as we have only recently seen the evidence of what can happen as in 2002.

Credit: Courtesy of Michael Lamb/Caltech This is why the Canyon Lake flood is so significant. "Here, we know that all of the erosion occurred during the flood," Lamb says. "Flood waters flowed for several weeks, but the highest discharge—during which the bulk of the erosion took place—was over a period of just three days." "in a remarkable demonstration of the power of raging waters, the flood excavated a 2.2-kilometer-long, 7-meter-deep canyon in the bedrock."

There was a time when the possibility of a Grand Canyon type of evidence was thought of being carved in millions of years until the Scablands of Washington proved otherwise.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well . . . ah misunderstanding is a possibility, but that would discount the basis for your belief system.

The facts remain for the many contradictions such as the bizzaro Noah's Arc and the world flood, and the evidence that most of it is an edited compilation over time with no known authors and poor provenance.

I understand. I would say we can:

a) harmonize the Flood and Genesis with modern science, although other have no problem with allegory here

b) find many marvelous anonymous works and understand that even secular books can be more noble than their authors in real life--I know the Bible writers seem honest and have good news, so Jesus's Name is above theirs--indeed they wrote so and also were avoiding Roman and Jewish persecution as authors

c) never find source texts that show redaction and edits of any significance--the Septuagint of 250 CE is essentially the Masoretic texts of 1,250 years later, extant

Therefore, I will keep on keeping on.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Not sure where you are coming from.
Let's try again.
Certainly there are discrepancies - that's obvious to anyone who reads the bible, particularly the Gospels where you have four accounts which vary in some details.

If there were absolutely NO discrepancies the cynic would say this suggests they aren't independent accounts. You can't get four historians agreeing on every detail of anything.
And if the details vary slightly then the cynic will say there are discrepancies, therefor the accounts are not correct.

I agree--thanks--which is why I said significant discrepancies, for example, unfulfilled prophecy or blatant contradictions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You need to explain what you mean. I don't understand.

You are totally unaware of the messianic prophecies.? Wait, you did mention at least one that he failed.

Ask some of our Jewish members . They will be able to answer better than I can.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I agree--thanks--which is why I said significant discrepancies, for example, unfulfilled prophecy or blatant contradictions.

You mean like the terribly failed Tyre prophecy.

 

[Skwim]

Yes... the explanation was given. It is a matter of viewpoint. If you want to make it a point of contention to decide that the promise of the Messiah is a fable, then it will be for you.

Hey, all I'm doing is pointing out contradictions in the Bible. Nothing more, nothing less, and I believe you know that.

As I read the explanation, I find it acceptable and reasonable, and thus found restoration for my marriage, power for healing miracles and strength when what I face is beyond my ability.

Of course you do, and in spite of the fact that the contradiction is right in front of you.

One - a colt. Mark 11:7 Luke 19:3 5. And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it.
Two - a colt and an ***. Matthew 21:7. They brought the *** and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon.

them ≠ it

.​

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[David T]

Beautifully put. Thank you.
It says in 2 Thes that "God sends strong delusion." Jesus railed against the scribes and lawyers who represent the academically superior and legalistic minds. And he said of the Jews that these things were "hid from their eyes." That is because these people excused themselves from believing in this famous man because they didn't like the deeper truths He presented.

I am always a bit cautious about that term god because it means so many things in so many different ways but yes, we can overly intellectualize ourselves into being pretty dumb.

 

[nPeace]

It is impossible for God to lie. (Hebrew 6:18)
So how could his book be filled with glaring inconsistencies and significant discrepancies and still be called the Word of God?

Is consideration of how we got the Bible today the answer ?
These writings were "transmitted" or "entrusted" to scribes, sopherims and Masoretes, who made copies repeatedly for over a thousand year, until the Middle Ages.

Then they were translated from Hebrew to Greek and then to latin, from these thousands of manuscript Master copies were made. From these came the English translations.

Copied Manusscripts and Translations are not inspired !

Thus some scribal variations crept in. But none are of such scope and weight as to cast doubt on the inspiration and authority of the Bible as a whole. By careful examination, seeming contradictions can be shown to have an honest solution.

At times, Bible writers do not always seem to agree on matters relating to figures, order of events, wording of quotations, and so forth.
But consider: If you were to ask several eyewitnesses of an event to write down what they saw, would all accounts coincide entirely in wording and detail? If they did, would you not be suspicious of collusion among the writers?
So, too, Bible writers were allowed by God to retain their own particular style and language, while God saw to it that his ideas and pertinent facts were conveyed accurately.

But are there not texts in the Bible that say just the opposite of other texts?
Let us consider just one as an example:

Genesis 2:2 that records that God rested from all his work. Contrasting with this is Jesus comment at John 5:17 where he says that God has kept working until now. But as the context shows, the record in Genesis is speaking specifically of Gods works of material creation, while Jesus was referring to Gods works concerning his divine guidance and care for mankind.

Most people fail to put forth necessary effort, finding it so much easier just to go along with the critics.
Perhaps God is giving them exactly what they want:
2 Thess 3:11. "...That is why God lets an operation of error go to them...."

Could we not, instead imitate the example of the apostles who when perplexed by what they called a hard saying, silenced every objection with this: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life....(John 6:60) ?

Very creative post.

I like the fact that you showed how seeming inconsistencies can easily be understood to be contrarily not.
Rather, it's just a matter of understanding, and humility allows us to do that.

Good example here.

But are there not texts in the Bible that say just the opposite of other texts?
Let us consider just one as an example:

Genesis 2:2 that records that God rested from all his work. Contrasting with this is Jesus comment at John 5:17 where he says that God has kept working until now. But as the context shows, the record in Genesis is speaking specifically of Gods works of material creation, while Jesus was referring to Gods works concerning his divine guidance and care for mankind.