Does Religion Deserve Respect by Default?

[Tomorrows_Child]

What do you mean by respect in this context? I believe I explained it as giving it deferential treatment. For example, when somebody expressed a belief I disagree with, or find wrong, I question or criticise that belief. Some people believe that that doing so to a religious belief is disrespectful to that belief, as if the mere act of questioning is somehow a breach of the defence I should hold for that particular position. However, people never seem to do this with political beliefs, regardless of how sincerely they are held. I have never heard anyone say "You shouldn't disrespect that person's political belief because it will offend them". Yet religion is granted this exception. Why?


I'm not certain you read the majority of my post. I explained in very clear terms the difference between respecting an individual and respecting a belief, and what respecting either means in its individual context. Tell me, does "respect" to you mean not being able to criticise or mock? If so, do you believe political satire is wrong? Are political cartoons to be considered disrespectful towards individuals?

See, that's the problem, many people believe criticising equates to mocking. That's not true. I have come across many people who have criticised my religion and I'm ok with that, as long as they do so with respect, they contruct their argument logically and based on knowledge, I have no problem, why should I? Allah in several verses in the Quran opens religion for debate and discussion.

Mocking is entirely different and much of western society, in it's guise of "secularism", is mistaking it for constructive criticism or debate. We can all criticse but stay respectful.

And yes, I did read your post and you still maintain that somehow religion is a separate part of someones identity as a human being. It is not. The same thing with r ace. I will give you an example, one can not say he hates black people and then claim to respect a black individual. That's absurd. So do you now understand?

Religion, mine or any other should be open for criticism and debate, I welcome it, it helps people understand Islam better but there should be no mocking or belittling of any individual, religiously or in any other way.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

See, that's the problem, many people believe criticising equates to mocking. That's not true. I have come across many people who have criticised my religion and I'm ok with that, as long as they do so with respect, they contruct their argument logically and based on knowledge, I have no problem, why should I? Allah in several verses in the Quran opens religion for debate and discussion.

Mocking is entirely different and much of western society, in it's guise of "secularism", is mistaking it for constructive criticism or debate. We can all criticse but stay respectful.

So do you believe it is wrong to mock any kind of view, or only religious ones? Do you agree with mocking political views? What about extremism (both religious and non-religious)?

And yes, I did read your post and you still maintain that somehow religion is a separate part of someones identity as a human being. It is not.

Yes it is. Religion is a set of views or values held by a person. Giving it respect is different than giving a human being respect. To use your example, you cannot "accidentally bump into" belief and apologize to it. Beliefs don't have rights.

The same thing with r ace. I will give you an example, one can not say he hates black people and then claim to respect a black individual. That's absurd. So do you now understand?

That is absurd, but because both of them refer to PEOPLE. There is a difference between saying "I hate religion" and "I hate religious people".

Religion, mine or any other should be open for criticism and debate, I welcome it, it helps people understand Islam better but there should be no mocking or belittling of any individual, religiously or in any other way.

So you only consider disrespect to be mocking?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I agree. Sadly some religions seem to delight in infringing.

Another name from a gathering of right-wing Christian or Muslim groups? The Infringe Festival

 

[Skwim]

On disrespecting religion.

I have no problem with this as long as it doesn't result in actual harm, such as depriving someone of their rights. That a person takes umbrage at an opinion is their choice. Mocking may not be easy to handle; however, no one is obligated to give it any import. Want to mock and deride my beliefs? Go right ahead. Other than that it makes for little ground for discussion, I have the discretion to blow if off if I wish. That I give it any credence is my choice, so any adverse impact that may occur to the mocking and derision is my doing. Taking offense at something is to assign that "something" value, which is wholly the discretion of the offended. If I don't respect your opinion why should I care what you opine about? Want to call me a M******** F******? go right ahead because no doubt I can't be bothered with caring what you think. However, If I've grown to respect you and your opinion, and even value what you think of me or my beliefs and positions, then I might feel bad about it. But again, this is up to me.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

So do you believe it is wrong to mock any kind of view, or only religious ones? Do you agree with mocking political views? What about extremism (both religious and non-religious)?


Yes it is. Religion is a set of views or values held by a person. Giving it respect is different than giving a human being respect. To use your example, you cannot "accidentally bump into" belief and apologize to it. Beliefs don't have rights.


That is absurd, but because both of them refer to PEOPLE. There is a difference between saying "I hate religion" and "I hate religious people".


So you only consider disrespect to be mocking?

You're going round in circles. You obviously believe that religion is not as important to a person or society as their race or nationality and so on, that's up to you but it means you know very little of society. When you disrespect an individuals belief, you disrespect that individual.

Anyway, forget all this ridiculous, long winded, pseudo intellectual rubbish, because at the end of the day it comes down to basic principles, of respecting people, no matter what they may believe or look like or dress like and so on. I have ALREADY stated, that if a belief system promotes the killing or oppression of people and other wrong acts, then it should not be respected and may even be mocked if one wishes to do so.

But in the end, it's just about basic decency. Something simple that people seem to forget about.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You're going round in circles. You obviously believe that religion is not as important to a person or society as their race or nationality and so on, that's up to you but it means you know very little of society.

I never made any comment on religion's importance - importance is relative. Some may consider religion trivial, while others may consider religion so important that the very act of questioning it can be considered heresy. Importance, or the amount of import someone puts in something, has nothing to do with rights. There are many people who hold their political, social or philosophical views to be extremely important, and yet there are no rallying cries for us to "respect" their beliefs.

When you disrespect an individuals belief, you disrespect that individual.

I'm afraid you're the one who is going around in circles here. I have already explained the difference between respecting an individual and respecting a belief, and that the kind of "respect" we are talking about in each case is very different. I already explained this in my first response to you. If, to you, disrespect means simply "mocking" then we are talking at cross purposes and you must have either misread or not read my original post. I explained that respect in this context refers to deference - the notion that religion should be treated as unquestionable or to be afforded special treatment that other, non-religious beliefs are not. Would you consider disrespecting, say, Conservatism to be equal to disrespecting Conservatives?

Anyway, forget all this ridiculous, long winded, pseudo intellectual rubbish, because at the end of the day it comes down to basic principles, of respecting people, no matter what they may believe or look like or dress like and so on. I have ALREADY stated, that if a belief system promotes the killing or oppression of people and other wrong acts, then it should not be respected and may even be mocked if one wishes to do so.

How do you qualify a "wrong act". Do you believe the measure of respect that should be afforded to given perspectives (and apparently people, since according to you they are one and the same) should be solely defined by what you consider to be wrong? Sine you previously equated respect of a position to respect of an individual, do you therefore believe that if someone believes something that promotes oppression, killing or "wrong acts" you are therefore justified in disrespecting them?

But in the end, it's just about basic decency. Something simple that people seem to forget about.

Is it indecent to not show undue deference to religion?

 

[McBell]

Excuse me? How exactly am I an ignorant, arrogant moron? Did I spew hatred and stupidity against vast swaths of humanity and the human experience? No. I don't appreciate your insult.

Rather narrow definition for "ignorant, arrogant moron" you have.
Of course, I understand you had to narrowed it enough to exclude yourself....

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Rather narrow definition for "ignorant, arrogant moron" you have.
Of course, I understand you had to narrowed it enough to exclude yourself....

You're not making any sense and I don't know what the hell your problem is. Usually we get along. Maybe you woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. But I think you should leave me alone.

 

[McBell]

You're not making any sense and I don't know what the hell your problem is. Usually we get along. Maybe you woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. But I think you should leave me alone.

My apologies.
I did not mean for it be so far over your head.
Since I have not the time or patience to hold your hand through an explanation, I shall give you the last word.
Don't waste it.

 

[Shad]

The question is prompted by a remark atheist David Silverman made in an article on his book Fighting God. The article quotes him as saying:

“Some … people call me a (jerk) because I challenge the absurd notion that religion deserves respect by default. But religion is wrong for demanding respect simply for being, and even more wrong for demanding never to be questioned."
source​

What do you think? Think he has a reasonable point? ,,,,Why, why not?


.

Religions are just ideas. No idea has automatic respect but should be judged on it's merit or that of the collection of ideas which form the religion. There are also different views within many religions; denominations, sects, schools of thought, etc. Each also be judged according to it's view. One could also judge the idea as abstract concept in comparison to the practical application of each religion and it's variations.

 

[arthra]

A quotation comes to mind ...

"I disagree strongly with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

~ Voltaire

 

[psychoslice]

Just take a good look at the world today, do you really think religion needs respect ??.

 

[Sunstone]

If you are going to argue that religion must be respected because people self-identify with "their" religion and in some psychological sense it thus becomes a part of them --- if you are going to argue all that, then you logically must also argue that we are for the very same reasons required to respect any brand of pickles they self-identify with.

That's to say that people can self-identify with virtually anything and so why stop at religion? Why not require us to respect any and all things that people self-identify with? Things such as brands of pickles they eat. For surely there are people out there somewhere who self-identify with the brand of pickles they eat.

The notion that we must respect religion because religion is a part of us via the fact that we self-identify with it is a poorly thought out and ridiculous notion.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes. Yes, it does.

 

[Skwim]

Religions are just ideas. No idea has automatic respect but should be judged on it's merit or that of the collection of ideas which form the religion. There are also different views within many religions; denominations, sects, schools of thought, etc. Each also be judged according to it's view. One could also judge the idea as abstract concept in comparison to the practical application of each religion and it's variations.

Actually, religions consist of much more than ideas. Most importantly they incorporate behaviors, many of which are organized such as rituals, sermons, commemorations and venerations , sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trances, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service, and other aspects of human culture.

 

[psychoslice]

Actually, religions consist of much more than ideas. Most importantly they consist of behaviors, many of which are organized such as rituals, sermons, commemorations and venerations , sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trances, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service, and other aspects of human culture.

So !

 

[Sees]

Hard for much of anything to have respect by default. What respect is, how it is expressed, and what deserves it - is heavily dependent on culture...and becoming culture-less is more and more the norm.

 

[freethinker44]

A few days ago, someone posted on this forum that 1000 rabbis had signed a petition to admit Syrian refugees into the US. Should the rabbis be given greater or added respect because they are rabbis? Or should we respect their petition as much as we might if 1000 people of various backgrounds had signed it?

I would actually subtract respect, if respect could be quantified that is.
Signing the petition is a sign of basic compassion and support for human rights.
That the fact that they're rabbis would need to be highlighted, doesn't make me think how wonderful they are, it makes me wonder how messed up rabbis are as a group, that them signing a petition to show basic human compassion for suffering people would be a significant event.

 

[Altfish]

Although I haven't come across anyone who's said religion should never to be questioned, I know quite a few who expect it shouldn't, and even get teed off when it is.

How about Maryam Namazie's talk last week; there were people there who think that questioning of their religion shouldn't happen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/studen...ckle-and-aggressively-interrupt-a6760306.html

 

[Shad]

Actually, religions consist of much more than ideas. Most importantly they incorporate behaviors, many of which are organized such as rituals, sermons, commemorations and venerations , sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trances, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service, and other aspects of human culture.

Which are still ideas. Ideas how to conduct yourself, idea about how many hail Mary's one should do, idea about which is important or unimportant, etc. Hence why I said collection of ideas. Idea put into actions are no less ideas, just that those doing the act accept the idea has merit, works or is useful