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does JESUS(pbuh) said i am GOD & worship me ?
- Thread starter bawar992
- Start date
Bob Dixon
>implying
While he does not use those exact words, admittedly, Jesus often says things that might imply it.
In John 10:30, he says, "I and the Father are One."
In John 8:58, he says, "Before Abraham was, I am [or was]." This implies that he's equating himself with God, because "I am", of course is Yahweh, the name of God in Judaism.
In Matthew 16, he asks Simon who the people think he [Jesus] is. Simon says that they think he's John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah, and various other prophets. Then, Jesus asks Simon who Simon thinks Jesus is. Simon replies, "the Christ and the Son of God," at which Jesus blesses Simon.
He also forgives sins which, in that society at that time, was seen as only being possible by God.
There is evidence of the opposite, too, however.
In Mark 10, he tells a man to stop calling him "good", because only God is good.
He also prayed to God often and didn't tell people to worship him and pray to him.
He also taught all people to look at God as their Father, so, in a sense, his movement wasn't about "I am the Son of God", but rather about "We are all Children of God".
Still, you could look at it either way. He didn't specifically say, "I am God, worship me", but some things could imply that. Christians can easily use the Bible to support their view that Jesus was God and Muslims can just as easily use the Bible to support the view that he wasn't.
Just out of curiosity, are you here because of Dr. Zakir Naik's challenge to Christians?
In John 10:30, he says, "I and the Father are One."
In John 8:58, he says, "Before Abraham was, I am [or was]." This implies that he's equating himself with God, because "I am", of course is Yahweh, the name of God in Judaism.
In Matthew 16, he asks Simon who the people think he [Jesus] is. Simon says that they think he's John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah, and various other prophets. Then, Jesus asks Simon who Simon thinks Jesus is. Simon replies, "the Christ and the Son of God," at which Jesus blesses Simon.
He also forgives sins which, in that society at that time, was seen as only being possible by God.
There is evidence of the opposite, too, however.
In Mark 10, he tells a man to stop calling him "good", because only God is good.
He also prayed to God often and didn't tell people to worship him and pray to him.
He also taught all people to look at God as their Father, so, in a sense, his movement wasn't about "I am the Son of God", but rather about "We are all Children of God".
Still, you could look at it either way. He didn't specifically say, "I am God, worship me", but some things could imply that. Christians can easily use the Bible to support their view that Jesus was God and Muslims can just as easily use the Bible to support the view that he wasn't.
Just out of curiosity, are you here because of Dr. Zakir Naik's challenge to Christians?
Bob Dixon
>implying
Dr. Zakir Naik (I can't find the video, but you'll trust me, here) put up a challenge to Christians, challenging us to read the Bible and point out where Jesus asks us to worship him as God.
Indeed, I'm somewhat inclined to agree with Naik; the Bible supports his claims and doesn't really support the whole "Jesus = God" thing. Still, as a Christian I'd put Jesus up higher than all other humans. For us, for all intents and purposes, Jesus = God, if not only because his message was exactly God's and he lived his life only for God.
Many Christians support the whole "begotten son" thing but, well, here's the Dr.'s opinion:
[youtube]Dr_iwPJUPWs[/youtube]
Is Jesus (pbuh) the begotten son of God? Dr Zakir Naik - YouTube
I don't really follow his whole "begotten means there has to be sex involved" thing, though, because the person he was arguing with was right; one can have more than one interpretation/meaning of the word begotten. As a Muslim, you, too, believe in Jesus' virgin birth, no? Well, then if it wasn't Joseph, who begat Jesus? Who made Mary pregnant? God did, that's who. So, one can say, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God because he's the only person who was born of a virgin with God as the one who did the fertilising!
Believe what you will, as long as you take both sides logically.
Note that a lot of this has to do with wording and the sense of the words. Also note that most of this stuff is from the Gospel of John, which is more about how Christians came to see Jesus than about how Jesus came to see himself.
chiefofsinners
New Member
Recognizing/believing that Jesus Christ is ONE with G-d & the Holy Spirit is the most basic fundamental of being a "Christian," since Christianity is founded on the belief that Christ is the manifestation (embodiment) of G-d in the flesh. Thus, Christ declaring "before Abraham was, I AM" John 8:58 is nothing less than a full-out acknowledgment that He is G-d (since "I AM" is the name G-d reveals to Moses) - which is why the Jews immediately picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy in making Himself equal to G-d.
Unable to elaborate now (will try to follow-up later), let this remain clear: The Bible most definitely does "really support the whole Jesus = G-d" revelation, but the Bible (Biblia/Logos) is one word - meaning it must be understood as a sum of its parts and cannot be deciphered accurately taking verses out of context. You must understand the context of "I AM," to realize Christ's declaration was by no means "indirect..."
With regards to begotten - it does not mean there is sex involved. That Christ is begotten means that He is not "created" as if there was a point when He didn't exist. He is One with the Father, Who with His Holy Spirit - has always existed & will always exist, the beginning & the end.
The surest, fastest and most logical way to know Who G-d/Christ is, is to ask Him directly. "G-d, Who is this Christ? Make me to understand so I may know You better." Even Islam wouldn't consider such a sincere interaction between you and your Maker against the rules of approaching G-d...
And then read the gospels again - this time not looking for any specific phrase or limited number of words, but instead read them to understand Who Christ is and what message He teaches.
The purpose of Christ's coming was not to tell people to worship Him, but rather to destroy death & release humans from their enslavement to it (by being crucified & raising Himself from the "dead" - having died in the flesh, not in His divinity).
This is not about a man making/lifting himself up to be G-d, which is a hard thing and impossible for a human; rather, it is about G-d coming down and becoming man, which is a very easy & small thing for Him. Our concern in hearing this should logically move from "if" to "why" He did this. Then we might come closer to understanding Christianity not as a mystery of a man being G-d, but a mystery of God's love for humans being so beyond human imagination that He came down among us hidden - allowed Himself to suffer unjustly at the hands of those He had chosen & uttered the words "forgive them, for they know not what they do" before returning to His glory and height - bringing humans up with Him (who before then, everyone believed we were separate from G-d, from dust & returning to it - but after Him, humans have come to recognize G-d as our Father Who loves us). Indeed the ones who have tasted, continue to testify of how sweet God's love is: "Taste and see that the Lord is good."
G-d will exceed your expectations and the limitations you place on Him, if only you would ask Him sincerely. It is the greatest spirit of deception to tell you it is wrong to approach G-d and explore Him. Why should you allow any person, book or thing on earth or in heaven stop you from speaking openly and freely to your G-d and Creator as if to your Father? G-d cannot be fully contained in any of these, but through Christ He has allowed Himself to fill you - rendering you/your body His temple, which is the fulfillment of the prophesy of the Messiah. Seek G-d and keep seeking to know His Christ and you will find Him.
to be continued...
Unable to elaborate now (will try to follow-up later), let this remain clear: The Bible most definitely does "really support the whole Jesus = G-d" revelation, but the Bible (Biblia/Logos) is one word - meaning it must be understood as a sum of its parts and cannot be deciphered accurately taking verses out of context. You must understand the context of "I AM," to realize Christ's declaration was by no means "indirect..."
With regards to begotten - it does not mean there is sex involved. That Christ is begotten means that He is not "created" as if there was a point when He didn't exist. He is One with the Father, Who with His Holy Spirit - has always existed & will always exist, the beginning & the end.
The surest, fastest and most logical way to know Who G-d/Christ is, is to ask Him directly. "G-d, Who is this Christ? Make me to understand so I may know You better." Even Islam wouldn't consider such a sincere interaction between you and your Maker against the rules of approaching G-d...
And then read the gospels again - this time not looking for any specific phrase or limited number of words, but instead read them to understand Who Christ is and what message He teaches.
The purpose of Christ's coming was not to tell people to worship Him, but rather to destroy death & release humans from their enslavement to it (by being crucified & raising Himself from the "dead" - having died in the flesh, not in His divinity).
This is not about a man making/lifting himself up to be G-d, which is a hard thing and impossible for a human; rather, it is about G-d coming down and becoming man, which is a very easy & small thing for Him. Our concern in hearing this should logically move from "if" to "why" He did this. Then we might come closer to understanding Christianity not as a mystery of a man being G-d, but a mystery of God's love for humans being so beyond human imagination that He came down among us hidden - allowed Himself to suffer unjustly at the hands of those He had chosen & uttered the words "forgive them, for they know not what they do" before returning to His glory and height - bringing humans up with Him (who before then, everyone believed we were separate from G-d, from dust & returning to it - but after Him, humans have come to recognize G-d as our Father Who loves us). Indeed the ones who have tasted, continue to testify of how sweet God's love is: "Taste and see that the Lord is good."
G-d will exceed your expectations and the limitations you place on Him, if only you would ask Him sincerely. It is the greatest spirit of deception to tell you it is wrong to approach G-d and explore Him. Why should you allow any person, book or thing on earth or in heaven stop you from speaking openly and freely to your G-d and Creator as if to your Father? G-d cannot be fully contained in any of these, but through Christ He has allowed Himself to fill you - rendering you/your body His temple, which is the fulfillment of the prophesy of the Messiah. Seek G-d and keep seeking to know His Christ and you will find Him.
to be continued...
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
No. He never said it, and never implied it and not all christians teach that he did so.
He worshiped God the father and told his followers to do the same.
Jesus even said that he would not receive glory from men... yet we know that God does receive glory from men
John 5:41 I do not accept glory from men, 42 but I well know that YOU do not have the love of God in YOU. 43 I have come in the name of my Father,
And according to Jesus, all men should worship God alone.
Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.
Jesus didnt view his teaching as from himself...he sought only to glorify God through his teaching, not himself:
John 7:16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but he that seeks the glory of him that sent him, this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him
Bob Dixon
>implying
See, you really could argue it either way.
Sorry to tell you this, dude, but the Bible can be used to support both and both sides use the same Bible to support it.
Also, the "Before Abraham was, I am" is disputed. Many say the correct translation is, "Before Abraham was, I was". Most agree that the "I am" is not capitalised.
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
Me Myself
Back to my username
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/61330-did-jesus-say-he-god.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...r/119446-where-did-jesus-asked-worshpped.html
To be fair, it has been very recently brought up in a more focused fashion in 2 threads. So instead of going here to answer both questions, maybe answer each on it´s thread so it is more focused.
Just saying
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...r/119446-where-did-jesus-asked-worshpped.html
To be fair, it has been very recently brought up in a more focused fashion in 2 threads. So instead of going here to answer both questions, maybe answer each on it´s thread so it is more focused.
Just saying
On_a_Quest
Member
Where did the Nicene Creed come from?
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
First Council of Nicaea
Bob Dixon
>implying
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
Hmm. I figured he was being sarcastic due to his tittle as " Questioning Catholic".
But the creed is pretty biblical.
On_a_Quest
Member
Nope, not sarcastic. I was legitimately wondering where it came from because I knew it wasn't the Bible, but I didn't remember who put it together.
As far as the creed itself goes, some of it is from the Bible, but other parts are Church doctrine that sort of evolved over the centuries. If all of the creed was in the Bible, we wouldn't need a creed. It talks about the stuff that isn't self-evident in the Bible itself.
As far as the creed itself goes, some of it is from the Bible, but other parts are Church doctrine that sort of evolved over the centuries. If all of the creed was in the Bible, we wouldn't need a creed. It talks about the stuff that isn't self-evident in the Bible itself.
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
Can you tell me what part is actually not from the Bible?
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became truly human. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. Besides this part of courseWe believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen
On_a_Quest
Member
It's the idea of the Trinity that gets me. Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one God. It's not something that was written out explicitly in the Bible. The Trinity is an idea that early Christians struggled with and eventually came out as the winner over the centuries. In the first few centuries of Christianity, there was a lot of debate on how to interpret the relationship between Jesus and God, not to mention debate on whether Jesus even was God or a god or divine. Some Christian movements believed in two Gods, one of the OT and one of the NT. Some believed only in one God and viewed Jesus as wholly human and not divine. Still others were polytheistic and believed in 12 or even as much as 365 gods. For whatever reason, the other contenders for mainstream Christianity lost and the idea of the Trinity stuck with the religion. To sum it up, the Trinity is in the teachings of the Church, not in the Bible.
And on the section regarding the Holy Spirit, it says:
Obviously, there is a lot of Biblical evidence for why God should be worshipped, but where is the evidence that his Son should be worshipped? Or the Holy Spirit for that matter. That's what we're looking for in this thread, the Biblical evidence that notes where Jesus claimed that he was to be worshipped. I don't think that evidence exists.
And on the section regarding the Holy Spirit, it says:
Obviously, there is a lot of Biblical evidence for why God should be worshipped, but where is the evidence that his Son should be worshipped? Or the Holy Spirit for that matter. That's what we're looking for in this thread, the Biblical evidence that notes where Jesus claimed that he was to be worshipped. I don't think that evidence exists.
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
On the son part, I do believe I gave scriptural evidence to his divinity within the gospels.
The Holy Spirit is the advocate Jesus told his Apostles he would send to them at Pentecost.
JacobEzra.
Dr. Greenthumb
I don't believe its soly the Churches teaching, yet it is a revealed truth through scripture. All fo these other beliefs were not as popular and did not spread like the trinitarian Christianity. HAve you ever read any of the Apostolic Fathers or the Early Christian Fathers?
Renji
Well-Known Member
Well, let's see it from the Bible through the teachings of the Church:
Jn 8:58 Jesus said to them (Jews)... "Before Abraham came to be, I AM"
Jn 13:19 "From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM."
In connection with this text, we can read in the Old testament particularly from the book of Exodus 3:14-17, Moses asked God, "If they ask me, 'What is his name?' what am I to tell them? God replied, "I am who am". See the way how Jesus "introduced" himself in the New Testament? It is exactly how the Father want himself to be known. If Jesus is just human, then he won't do that because that could mean blasphemy.
Now, there are a lot of verses in the Bible stating that Jesus is God:
Jn 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and the Word was God.. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us"
* Unless we know other word who was made flesh and walked here on earth aside from Jesus, then we can't deny what St. John said.
Rom 9:5 Theirs the patriarchs and from them according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed.
* Jesus is the Messiah (the very basic teaching of the Christian faith). Paul continued on that verse by saying "God who is over all be blessed".
1 Jn 5:20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Jn 20:28 Thomas answered and said to him (Jesus), "My Lord and my God."
Jd 25 To the only God our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord be the Glory, majesty, power and authority from the ages past, now and for ages to come. Amen.
2Pt 1:1 Symeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ.
Now, some may ask, If that is so, then why does Jesus said in Mk 15:34 and Mt 27:46 "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" actually, Jesus was just citing Psalm 22 when he done that, and not because he was complaining of what has happened to him..
Hope that helps^^
Jn 8:58 Jesus said to them (Jews)... "Before Abraham came to be, I AM"
Jn 13:19 "From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM."
In connection with this text, we can read in the Old testament particularly from the book of Exodus 3:14-17, Moses asked God, "If they ask me, 'What is his name?' what am I to tell them? God replied, "I am who am". See the way how Jesus "introduced" himself in the New Testament? It is exactly how the Father want himself to be known. If Jesus is just human, then he won't do that because that could mean blasphemy.
Now, there are a lot of verses in the Bible stating that Jesus is God:
Jn 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and the Word was God.. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us"
* Unless we know other word who was made flesh and walked here on earth aside from Jesus, then we can't deny what St. John said.
Rom 9:5 Theirs the patriarchs and from them according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed.
* Jesus is the Messiah (the very basic teaching of the Christian faith). Paul continued on that verse by saying "God who is over all be blessed".
1 Jn 5:20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Jn 20:28 Thomas answered and said to him (Jesus), "My Lord and my God."
Jd 25 To the only God our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord be the Glory, majesty, power and authority from the ages past, now and for ages to come. Amen.
2Pt 1:1 Symeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ.
Now, some may ask, If that is so, then why does Jesus said in Mk 15:34 and Mt 27:46 "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" actually, Jesus was just citing Psalm 22 when he done that, and not because he was complaining of what has happened to him..
Hope that helps^^
On_a_Quest
Member
Just because the Trinity was the most popular belief does not mean that it is the correct one.
I have not yet read either. I have a very long reading list that I'm trying to work though. However, I expect that by reading texts from early Christian fathers, my points will only be reaffirmed. In fact, many of the early Christian writers and founding fathers of the Church were later declared heretic as times and ideas changed. :yes:
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