Does Jesus become ruler over the created world (The God of this world)

[Psalm23]

I don’t know what you are saying. I’m not sure what you are presenting ....

Jesus saying that he and the Father are one simply means they are of one accord. Are you trying to prove a trinity by TWO PERSONS, a human and a Deity?

The way I look at it is that Jesus is God with us. He always has been God and one day came for you and me. He was born of a virgin but he existed as God before this. In the trinity view there is one God in 3 persons , Father , Son and Holy Spirit. They are one in essence and character. They are distinct from each other but one God. My view differs some from this as I don’t think the Father , Son and Holy Spirit as distinct from each other but one God and person.

 

[Soapy]

Not all trinitarians are the same. There is a tendency among unitarians to dismiss them as non brothers, and I advise against that.

On the topic of trinity both protestants and catholics share a common voyage. My advice, having had experience in both camps, is to let God have the glory by letting this struggle be put into its place. The arguments of the past were begun in anger, but even though the anger is gone the arguments have taken on a life of their own. They are pointless. Merge and commune with your fellows. That's good advice I say. Judge by fruit not by words.

Trinity is designed to be obscure. It is nowhere cohesive in its ideology .... and hence there are every different sect that can come out of it.

Ask one trinitarian something and he says ‘x’.

When you successfully dispute it and ask another trinitarian, this one says, “I don’t believe that... I believe ‘y’”.

Dispute ‘y’ and show it is false and ... yeah, you get it.... another trinity belief.

But it doesn’t continue that way totally. When a trinity fallacy is exposed, Trinitarians SIMPLY USE THE EXPOSURE to devise a solution around it... and come up with a new solution.

Hence the reason trinity will exist until Jesus Christ comes and destroys it.

So I don’t claim to bring down trinity toto. But I do expose its fallacies knowing someone will build up a solution against the exposure..

But you know what, all this does is to show that all these new modifications and solutions to trinity PROVE that trinity was false from the beginning otherwise if would not need to change at all. God’s word is truth - and truth does not change!

Trinity belief changes because it has to.

 

[Soapy]

The way I look at it is that Jesus is God with us. He always has been God and one day came for you and me. He was born of a virgin but he existed as God before this. In the trinity view there is one God in 3 persons , Father , Son and Holy Spirit. They are one in essence and character. They are distinct from each other but one God. My view differs some from this as I don’t think the Father , Son and Holy Spirit as distinct from each other but one God and person.

This sounds like a Catholic blah blah.

Please can I ask you to DEFINE what you mean by ‘GOD’. And then show me what you mean by ‘God in three persons’.

Thanks.

 

[Psalm23]

This sounds like a Catholic blah blah.

Please can I ask you to DEFINE what you mean by ‘GOD’. And then show me what you mean by ‘God in three persons’.

Thanks.

I was presenting what trinity states and how I differ

 

[Soapy]

The Son, Jesus, is called Father...Everlasting Father...


For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

“Everlasting Father” is a prophecy concerning the last judgement wherein Jesus GIVES EVERLASTING LIFE to those whom he seems worthy.

One definition of ‘Father’ is:

• “He who GIVES LIFE TO..”

Hence, Scriptures says that ‘As the Father has life [giving powers] in him SO HE HAS GRANTED the son to ALSO have life in him”. This means that Jesus was GRANTED the ability to GIVE LIFE to those whom he chooses AT THE MERCY SEAT on judgement day... and that LIFE GIVING is an ETERNAL LIFE GIVING - hence “Eternal Father”.

 

[74x12]

Trinity claims that it was Jesus who created the world (earth) and everything in it. Yet the scriptures says that it was Yahweh who created it and all within it - in fact, Yahweh says that his people should worship Him, and Him, alone - one God (as opposed to pagan worship which is worship of many Gods).

But if Jesus created everything then why is he not called ‘Father’ (which means: ‘He that brings into being; he that brings forth; he that gives life; the head) and yet nowhere in scriptures does it say that Jesus is the ruler of the world; the Father.

So, it is interesting that scriptures says that, at the end of time, Jesus BECOMES the Eternal Father of those whom he gives eternal life to after the judgements.

But if we are to believe the trinity view that Jesus is one part of a tri-part ‘GOD’ - and GOD is Spirit and rules a GREATER infinite kingdom (Heaven) than the limited physical kingdom of earth - how is it that one part of the tri-part co-equal, co-powerful, co-everything GOD becomes ruler (God) over its/his own creation without the other two parts - and indeed become a LESSER ruler than his present rulership as God of all things?

Jesus said before Abraham was I am. If Abraham is indeed the father of the faithful; then what does that make Jesus? Both the root and offspring of Jesse at once.

 

[Soapy]

Scripture claims this. John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.​

The Trinity just draws from this verse, and others. They didn't just make up that claim. John made that claim.


Then you should ask yourself why John said all of creation was done through the Logos, which is identified as Jesus in verse 14. Why did John claim that? What was he trying to teach us?


These are good questions which scholars reading the gospel of John deal with. Why does Jesus say, "When you have seen me, you have seen the Father", or why he says, "I and the Father are One", for instance. This is where various theologies about Jesus based upon scripture come to bear, based upon such statements.



What verse are you thinking of that says Jesus becomes the Father? I can't think of what you are referring to.


A better way to try to imagine the Trinity, is not with a math formula. There is only one God, which manifests in the ways as described in scripture.

I can see from your response that knowledge of the scriptures is not a strong point and regurgitating what you have been taught in wrongness is all you can respond with.

You say the trinity draws its ideology from the scriptures.... that’s odd!

John 1:1-3 is one of the most dangerously misinterpreted scriptures in the whole Bible. It is nothing to do with Jesus creating anything.

It says that God’s word was with with him in the beginning... and we know that from Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...”

And God said, “LET THERE BE LIGHT”.... there you are, God’s word at work creating the world.

Define what you mean by ‘God’... I beg you cannot... I bet you just use the TITLE with no idea what you mean by it.

Also, God’s WORD was that he would send a SAVIOUR... AND HE DID.... and so God’s word ‘TOOK ON FLESH’.... it CAME TRUE. God’s word was MANIFESTED on earth...

If someone says they will do something monumental and then they do it, then that is their WORD BEING MANIFESTED. That is their WORD ‘Taking on flesh’.

Isaiah 42:1 speaks of Yahweh prophesying about EXACTLY that and more:

• “Behold my SERVANT whom I approve. I will put MY SPIRIT on him and he will do my will and bring justice to the nations”

Please, of whom is Yahweh speaking?

Is God a SERVANT?

Did God put His Spirit on someone at an anointing at the river Jordan... what is the significance of an anointing?

How does trinity harmonise with these prophesies?

I think you need to talk to your pastor, priest, bishop, or whom ever is teaching you trinity nonsense.

Oh, by the way. Be careful if you are going to ask. Ask to many questions and you may find you get tossed out the church. The reason is that trinity churches DO NOT LIKE you to question their belief. They don’t like you to ask questions that they cannot fix and answer to.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Fwiw, refer to the Gospel of John.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So we have a trinity in God the God, Word, and Son.
Since the Word (presumably a concept for Spirit) was God, then logically if the Word became flesh in Jesus, all three concepts, God, Word, and Son constitute one God. So in saying the the Son came from the Father (Father being another concept meaning God), it means God the Son came from God the Father through God the Word becoming flesh.

 

[Psalm23]

This sounds like a Catholic blah blah.

Please can I ask you to DEFINE what you mean by ‘GOD’. And then show me what you mean by ‘God in three persons’.

Thanks.

I believe the Father , Son and Holy Spirit are one God. My personal belief is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not 3 persons but rather one and the same God.

I believe God is the creator of everything and ultimate authority. He is timeless and lives forever. I do not believe I can understand God fully nor can any person or angel understand God completely.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus said before Abraham was I am. If Abraham is indeed the father of the faithful; then what does that make Jesus? Both the root and offspring of Jesse at once.

Another who posts without knowledge.

I really don’t know what you are asking. Have people forgotten how to ask questions these days or has the texting fraternity hit online forums!?

The Jews asked Jesus if he was GREATER THAN their forefather, Abraham. Abraham FORSAW the day that the MESSIAH would come and was glad that the messiah was to come from HIS LOINS - his descendants. So even Abraham knew that ‘One greater than he was TO COME’.

Jesus replied to the Jews that, effectively, ‘YES, I AM GREATER THAN ABRAHAM’.

This is WHY the Jews took up stones to try stoning him - because he said, ‘YES, I AM’.

The words ‘I am’ are just ‘Eigo Eimi’ in Greek - but Jesus WAS NOT SPEAKING GREEK nor ENGLISH to the Jews. He was speaking ARAMAIC.

And, the NAME OF GOD is not “EIGO EIMI” (or equivalent in Aramaic). ‘Eigo Eimi’ if it comes down to it - which if does not - is the MEANING of the word ‘YHWH’. ‘YHWH’ is the NAME, ‘I am’ is the MEANING.

Look at it like this: ‘Cephas’ (Peter), means, ‘[the] Rock’. Scriptures says that “The ROCK that followed the children of Israel in the wilderness was CHRIST”.

How do you read that: That PETER was CHRIST in the wilderness? Well, believe that and I will believe that Jesus was saying that he was ALMIGHTY GOD.... and the Jews tried to stone their almighty God!!!!

 

[Soapy]

Fwiw, refer to the Gospel of John.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So we have a trinity in God the God, Word, and Son.
Since the Word (presumably a concept for Spirit) was God, then logically if the Word became flesh in Jesus, all three concepts, God, Word, and Son constitute one God. So in saying the the Son came from the Father (Father being another concept meaning God), it means God the Son came from God the Father through God the Word becoming flesh.

You must know that you just made all that up. Try harmonising what you just said with the rest of scriptures!!

Have you ever tried fitting together a jigsaw puzzle composed of pieces from different jigsaw packages... The pieces do not fit to each other.

 

[74x12]

Another who posts without knowledge.

I really don’t know what you are asking. Have people forgotten how to ask questions these days or has the texting fraternity hit online forums!?

The Jews asked Jesus if he was GREATER THAN their forefather, Abraham. Abraham FORSAW the day that the MESSIAH would come and was glad that the messiah was to come from HIS LOINS - his descendants. So even Abraham knew that ‘One greater than he was TO COME’.

Jesus replied to the Jews that, effectively, ‘YES, I AM GREATER THAN ABRAHAM’.

This is WHY the Jews took up stones to try stoning him - because he said, ‘YES, I AM’.

The words ‘I am’ are just ‘Eigo Eimi’ in Greek - but Jesus WAS NOT SPEAKING GREEK nor ENGLISH to the Jews. He was speaking ARAMAIC.

And, the NAME OF GOD is not “EIGO EIMI” (or equivalent in Aramaic). ‘Eigo Eimi’ if it comes down to it - which if does not - is the MEANING of the word ‘YHWH’. ‘YHWH’ is the NAME, ‘I am’ is the MEANING.

Look at it like this: ‘Cephas’ (Peter), means, ‘[the] Rock’. Scriptures says that “The ROCK that followed the children of Israel in the wilderness was CHRIST”.

How do you read that: That PETER was CHRIST in the wilderness? Well, believe that and I will believe that Jesus was saying that he was ALMIGHTY GOD.... and the Jews tried to stone their almighty God!!!!

The point is that Jesus clearly claims to pre-exist Abraham. Besides who is greater than their own father anyway? You say Jesus is greater than his own father Abraham? My answer is only if he is both the root and offspring of Jesse.

 

[Soapy]

I was presenting what trinity states and how I differ

Thanks for your clarification. And you are entitled to what you want to believe, obviously.

However, while believing what you want to believe is one thing, believing the truth is the ultimate thing that you should aim for.

You said that ‘Jesus is God with us’. You do know that the ‘God with us’ is just a TITLE (Emmanuel)?

And while titles mean something we shouldn’t get carried away with it to make it an ideology. Jesus WAS TAUGHT BY GOD while he grew up and at the relevant time he CAME OUT to fulfil his mission. His mission was FIRST AND FOREMOST present the REVELATION OF GOD... the TESTIMONY OF THE FATHER as he was taught - and to do good among the people. And yes, to SAVE MANKIND from eternal death by his own death.

GOD required MAN to save MAN. A sinless man to die for the sin of the first man. It cannot be that GOD (?) dies for his own creation. That is an absolute ABSURDITY.

I’m amazed that all the events surround the sacrificial ceremonies, the prophesies, the words spoken in harmony concerning Jesus Christ, are completely lost on trinity, and trinity-like thoughts of persons claiming to believe in CHRIST Jesus.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You must know that you just made all that up. Try harmonising what you just said with the rest of scriptures!!

Have you ever tried fitting together a jigsaw puzzle composed of pieces from different jigsaw packages... The pieces do not fit to each other.

Of course you would say that, you apparently have your own belief that does not allow God to be present in His Creation. It does not matter if you do not believe, who really cares what you believe, what matters is divine realization.

Scripture of all religions are only a means of trying to convey a means of religious practice whereby the aspirant/disciple may discover for themselves who and what they really are in the context of universal reality. Comparing one scripture to another is ok, but you must get beyond the words/concepts to the reality that the words mean, just practice and allow God to transform your understanding from belief to being!

 

[Soapy]

The point is that Jesus clearly claims to pre-exist Abraham. Besides who is greater than their own father anyway? You say Jesus is greater than his own father Abraham? My answer is only if he is both the root and offspring of Jesse.

No he did not claim to pre-exist. The root and offspring of Jesse says nothing about ore-existence... Jesse is only one of those in the line of Jesus.

I don’t know what that saying means but it has nothing to do with proving that Jesus pre-existed or whatever it is you are asking. In fact I don’t know what you are asking!!

 

[Soapy]

I qouted my sl

Of course you would say that, you apparently have your own belief that does not allow God to be present in His Creation. It does not matter if you do not believe, who really cares what you believe, what matters is divine realization.

Scripture of all religions are only a means of trying to convey a means of religious practice whereby the aspirant/disciple may discover for themselves who and what they really are in the context of universal reality. Comparing one scripture to another is ok, but you must get beyond the words/concepts to the reality that the words mean, just practice and allow God to transform your understanding from belief to being!

Perhaps you should practice what you preach - advice-wise.

If you look into the meaning of the words you use then you wouldn’t be so confused. The word, actually more specifically, TITLE, ‘God’, is just a throw-away word these days. Trinitarians use to confuse their followers to the point that they think it is the NAME of the almighty. It also makes it easier to be disingenuous about verses like John 1;1 and yet when it is used elsewhere it suddenly takes its true meaning, such as ‘Satan is the GOD of this world’.

Now, consider that last statement. If the scriptures had said that ‘Jesus is the God of this world’ -wow!!! Trinitarians would be tripping over themselves to say it’s PROOF Jesus IS GOD ALMIGHTY. But the quote DOES NOT SAY THAT... in the same way that the previous quote DOES NOT SAY that Satan is GOD ALMIGHTY.

So you need to look at what ‘GOD’ means. It is a TITLE... and what is the MEANING of that title.

The conclusion is the SAME for both quotes: ‘The Ruler - by context of the position’.

YAHWEH.... is GOD of ALL [whom are called] GODS!

Yahweh is ONE GOD... besides him there is no other God.

While trinity tries desperately to claim there are three persons as their ONE GOD - a United three - something not even perceived nor implied in scriptures - it is impossible to harmonise with any scripture. Moreover, since Yahweh is IMMUTABLE it is also impossible that one part of Yahweh could split off and TAKE ON FLESH (even though that’s not what is meant).... ONE PART OF GOD IS GOD’s WORD... and ONE PART OF GOD BECAME FLESH?

Oh, wait, it didn’t BECOME flesh... it was still ALL GOD... yet GOD remained in Heaven!!

And then GOD sent GOD to take over when GOD returned to heaven.

Hmmm... a trinity of tragedies!

 

[InChrist]

“Everlasting Father” is a prophecy concerning the last judgement wherein Jesus GIVES EVERLASTING LIFE to those whom he seems worthy.

One definition of ‘Father’ is:

• “He who GIVES LIFE TO..”

Hence, Scriptures says that ‘As the Father has life [giving powers] in him SO HE HAS GRANTED the son to ALSO have life in him”. This means that Jesus was GRANTED the ability to GIVE LIFE to those whom he chooses AT THE MERCY SEAT on judgement day... and that LIFE GIVING is an ETERNAL LIFE GIVING - hence “Eternal Father”.

That sounds like superimposing or reading a lot of your own ideas into the Scripture.
I believe in the triune God, which I see as revealed in the entirety of the Bible. Below is a linked article which addresses the different views of God and the reasons why the Scriptures, the Cosmos, and creation support and point to the Triune God, three Persons - One God.
You are free to read it or not, agree or disagree.

The Trinity

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Perhaps you should practice what you preach - advice-wise.

If you look into the meaning of the words you use then you wouldn’t be so confused. The word, actually more specifically, TITLE, ‘God’, is just a throw-away word these days. Trinitarians use to confuse their followers to the point that they think it is the NAME of the almighty. It also makes it easier to be disingenuous about verses like John 1;1 and yet when it is used elsewhere it suddenly takes its true meaning, such as ‘Satan is the GOD of this world’.

Now, consider that last statement. If the scriptures had said that ‘Jesus is the God of this world’ -wow!!! Trinitarians would be tripping over themselves to say it’s PROOF Jesus IS GOD ALMIGHTY. But the quote DOES NOT SAY THAT... in the same way that the previous quote DOES NOT SAY that Satan is GOD ALMIGHTY.

So you need to look at what ‘GOD’ means. It is a TITLE... and what is the MEANING of that title.

The conclusion is the SAME for both quotes: ‘The Ruler - by context of the position’.

YAHWEH.... is GOD of ALL [whom are called] GODS!

Yahweh is ONE GOD... besides him there is no other God.

While trinity tries desperately to claim there are three persons as their ONE GOD - a United three - something not even perceived nor implied in scriptures - it is impossible to harmonise with any scripture. Moreover, since Yahweh is IMMUTABLE it is also impossible that one part of Yahweh could split off and TAKE ON FLESH (even though that’s not what is meant).... ONE PART OF GOD IS GOD’s WORD... and ONE PART OF GOD BECAME FLESH?

Oh, wait, it didn’t BECOME flesh... it was still ALL GOD... yet GOD remained in Heaven!!

And then GOD sent GOD to take over when GOD returned to heaven.

Hmmm... a trinity of tragedies!

Hmmm, perhaps you should reflect a little deeper about what I said about words and concepts and the reality they represent. You are just substituting another word, another concept, to explain what the first word/concept means. This process goes nowhere until we realize the reality itself for which the word/concept represents, and even then, it can not be conveyed to another who has not realized the said reality.

So let's for example take the word 'God', what is the reality it represents in the context of the absolute Source of all being.? Have you perceived God, have you realized God? If you have, you can only share your understanding of God with someone who has likewise realized/perceived God. All people who have not a firsthand knowledge of the reality represented by the word God can never say anything more than what they believe based on second hand definition or descriptions, Iow, they will use concepts to explain concepts! I am wanting to experience the reality of the real, not to have a discussion about he conceptual meaning of concepts representing the real.

 

[Redemptionsong]

do not one learn from mistakes?

what if we got the TRUTH "WRONG?"... do we blame our teachers? NO, it is our responsibility to allow God to teach us and Guide us in all truths. for LIGHT cast out darkness. the scriptures by the WISDOM of God gives us Knowlrdge and UNDERSTANDING, Proverbs 2:6 "For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding."

now the bible interpret it's self. so let the scriptures stand on the TRUE foundation of God. also, one cannot make a horse drink, but one can lead the horse to the water, so our job is to lead one to the water, then it's between them and God, if they drank..... or not. we have nothing to do with that.

so I still suggest that we discuss the scriptures, and let God GUIDE us..... not to argue, but to discuss/reason, together.... without offense.

PICJAG,
101G.

I agree with you.

The key here is 'in Spirit and truth'. This Way is only possible if a believer is 'born again' and experiences the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Those who know this baptism form a true spiritual body. IMO, if our conversion is 'head-strong' it is likely to result in division and dissension.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is still important to study scripture and elicit the intended meaning.

The doctrine of the 'trinity' is used to explain how God has redeemed mankind.

Has God come to earth? I would say that scripture teaches that God has come to dwell amongst men on earth. This is God's intended means of salvation. Through the Son comes the Holy Spirit, the One Spirit of the Father.