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Featured Does Jesus become ruler over the created world (The God of this world)

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Soapy, Apr 28, 2021.

  1. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Scripture tells us that the angels are the fingers of God. (Prov). Angels do is will and plan and purpose on earth in certain occasions. 'And the Elohim said, let us make man......." The angels have a big role in creation too. God manifests Himself in angels, Jesus, people.... Angels also represent our Creator too. They can speak as if God was speaking himself. And the angel in the firery bush said, I am the Lord your God, I am the God of Abraham........ Why would an angel say that? Is that angel now part of a trinity, does he think he's now co-equal with God? Is that angel trying to take over God's world? No, he's representing our Heavenly Father.

    Look at Jesus... God was in Christ to reconcile the world back to Him. Pharaoh, God raised him up and use him to counter Moses. (Acts 7). Look at Duet 18, 2 Sam 7..... Jesus came in his father's name.... We have to remember that God is in control of everything, even if we dont understand certain things.

    But getting back to the question... angels had a big part in creation. God did create everything, but he also used the angels here on earth. God himself does not come to earth. There is no reason for it. That is why the trinity totally degrades our Creator. God does not change into a man or brings himself down to our level. We must have a spiritual mind that looks up to our Father. Jesus did not create anything, he wasnt born yet. But... the world was created with him in mind. He was already slain before the foundation of the world.
     
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  2. ben d

    ben d Being

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    I really don't have a dog in this fight, I understand and like your understanding, however I also understand the understanding of the trinity concept that came from John 1-14, but I understand it along the lines of your understanding (I think), Jesus the human being was used by God, 'the Father and I are one' involves the sacrifice of an individual ego self. God expressed Himself through Jesus, or rephrasing it, Jesus was an expression of God.
     
    #82 ben d, Apr 30, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  3. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Hey Ben

    Thanks for the post. Yeah, I know that John 1 can be a tough one..... Here's my insight on that.....

    "In the beginning was the Word.." The translators capped the "W" in the verse to start with. So.... in the org language, the word "Word" is LOGOS. Which means, someone's plans, thoughts or reasons.. It is not telling us that the word "Word" is Jesus. Jesus IS.... part of the LOGOS of course. So, what was with God at the beginning? The LOGOS was, God's plans, thoughts and reasons. Then..... his plans became real or manifested... in his son in verse 14.
    Jesus comes into play in verse 14.

    So the other verses before that are talking about God, not Jesus.

    Example.... "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
    These verses are about our Heavenly Father. Not Jesus yet....

    You might want to look up online the Rotherham bible. It is more accurate. You'll get a better understanding.
     
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  4. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Hey moorea, that is an excellent explanation, I reflected on it and it fits with my understanding just fine, logos = plan.

    I've bookmarked an online Rotherham bible and will give it a go, thanks.
     
  5. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks

    I love that version of the bible. You can pick one up at any Christian bookstore or order online. The bibles that I dont like are the NIV and the NASB.
    The one I bring to church is always that KVJ, but I study at home with that or the ESV or NKJV. Both are really good. Keep in mind though, no bible put together by man is perfect, that there are errors in all bibles, not by God , but by the translators...

    In Hebrew, they have words and meaning that we dont have, so now the translators have to "come up" with something that they "think" will fit. Same with Greek and Latin. Also they have put in Latin words in the Hebrew OT, like Lucifer. A Latin word in a Hebrew bible? lol nope.... People think that's Satan, but if you read the whole chapter, it is about King Bebachadnezzer (bad spelling, I know....).

    Also the Satan word, Satan is an untranslated Hebrew word that should not have a cap "S". Most of the newer translations dont even have the word satan in it. It has the correct meaning , which is adversary. Plus the correct spelling for satan is sahtan not satan. But unfortunetly the translators have made a word like "adversary" into a fallen angel..... Unbelievable...... The KJV was put together in 1611, those were the dark ages.... just about everyone believed in supernatural monsters. The Catholic church gave the task of coping scripture to the monks. You can tell that the 'church" was a big influence in the writings.... Remember that Peter was a satan to Jesus. God was a satan to Israel and David too. OT stuff.... Are we saying that Jesus didnt know what the Hebrew word satan meant? Did he really think that Peter was really Satan from hell? lol I cant see that at all.....

    But anyhow... have a wonderful blessed day my friend...
     
  6. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Good post. Trinitarians only see what they want to see and no matter how much you point out perfectly valid truths to them they refuse to acknowledge it.

    Let’s just take a point you just made: The Messiah was ‘Slain FROM the foundation of the world’.

    Some Trinitarians, in their desperation, claim that this proves Jesus pre-existed creation.... even though it says ‘FROM the foundation of the world’!!

    But they then ignore Ephesians 1:4 wherein the apostles were ‘Chosen’ before the creation of the world:
    • “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,”
    So, by trinity, the apostles were pre-existing from BEFORE the world was created BUT Jesus was slain FROM the creation of the world. So, to continue the nonsense: The apostles PRE-EXISTED creation and, accordingly, MUST BE GOD as well...!

    You couldn’t make it up!!!! But Trinitarians DO MAKE IT UP as they go along and modify their belief as after as their doctrine is found wanting!

    When you apply one trinitarian belief to another trinitarian, that trinitarian DENIES that it is their (trinitarian) belief... therefore Trinitarians profess every permutation of explanation of a three-fold person god.

    Do not despair at the impossible nonsense - keep on extolling the truth of the one true God: Yahweh: the Father.

    ((p.s. I was just reading on another website wherein a trinitarian was trying to explain away how come Jesus was Almighty God but yet was given all power and authority. Who gave him all power and authority, and if he became God for having all power and authority, what was he BEFORE RECEIVING all power and authority? The author of the website did not say - indeed, nor could he without dispelling the ideology that Jesus was ALWAYS GOD (if you even were to take the trinity suggestion that Jesus being equal to god makes him God...) Remember that Joseph seated taking the power and authority of Pharoah DID NOT MAKE JOSEPH, PHAROAH. Joseph just reigned IN PHAROAH’s NAME!))
     
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  7. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I believe the scriptures reveal ONE GOD comprised of three Persons:
    Father, Son and Holy Spirit.




    As the scriptures say..
    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    Colossians 1:16-17


    Yes, the Son came to earth and became flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ- fully God/ Son of God, fully Man / Son of Man.
    Of course Jesus in His FLESH/HUMANITY died, as the scriptures testify.

    According to the scriptures His flesh died and was raised again to new eternal life for our sake; that all humans who have forgiveness through Christ by faith may have eternal life because Jesus paid the penalty for sin, conquered death and rose again.
    Jesus is the one and only unique, eternal fully human-fully God Being in existence.


    When you say “period of time “ what are you referring to? Scriptures references would have been helpful.
    As I said, Jesus is now a one of a kind an Eternal human/God Being, so there is no inconsistency with Him seated next to His Father God.



    Could you clarify your question and include a scripture reference?


    I believe while He was on earth in human form Jesus chose to limit Himself. So at that time as He spoke to the disciples He chose to leave the knowledge of the day and the hour of His return to His Father, I have no doubt that now, again from His eternal perspective He does know exactly when He will return.


    It seems to me that some of the questions you ask are because you are confused or don’t seem to understand that within the Godhead and between the Persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit there are different functions, yet with a unified purpose. There is nothing strange to me about the Father delegating rulership to His beloved Son. The concept and father/son relationship is displayed throughout the scriptures, especially the OT.
     
    #87 InChrist, May 3, 2021
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  8. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    I understand that you ‘believe that scriptures reveals’ what you think.

    But you are, I think, deluded by the argument concerning God being ‘One’.

    The scriptures does not make any claim to what you say you ‘believe’. It is simply what you have been told, I believe, by trinitarian ideology and the fact that most churches are trinitarian, thereby reinforcing the false ideology, in that you cannot call yourself ‘Christian’ unless you confess to the fallacy of trinity. Unless you have the Mark of trinity on your brow you cannot be a part of the earthly church. This is what SCARES the congregation into forcibly believing the fallacy, just as the Church, in the past, scared its congregation into believing the idea that the Earth was the centre of the solar system ... You would literally be KILLED unless you believe this fallacy - how embarrassing it was when Galileo and Copernicus proved that if was not so.

    How will you feel when you come to the realisation that a trinity God, expounded by the ‘earthly Church’, is all just a fallacy?
    I would urge you to examine the text CAREFULLY. Remember that you will later say that the Father is the one with all power and authority and then delegates it to the Son. So those verses are at odds with the belief that it is the Son who created all things, etc.

    • “All things were created ‘by him and for him’”?
    If you check, you will see that the verses are absolutely INCONGRUOUS. They are straight out of left field! They suggest that it is the Son, Jesus, who created all things by himself, for himself.
    Yet Genesis 1:1 tells us that it is GOD that created all things FOR HIMSELF, for his pleasure. Indeed, scriptures tells us that God, who we know by his name: ‘YHWH’ (Yahweh / Jehovah/ ...) says that He, and He “ALONE” created the world.
    So we are to believe that Jesus, the son, is YHWH, who, alone, created all things IN HEAVEN and the physical world BY HIMSELF and FOR HIMSELF.

    But that is not sense. A Father CREATES... indeed that is what ‘Father’ means (by CONTEXT)....
    • He who Brings Forth...’;
    • ‘He who Creates...’;
    • ‘He who Brings into being...’;
    • ‘He who is Head...’
    Jesus is the ‘head’ of the spiritual church - but the church BELONGS to God; to YHWH. This is akin to Jesus being shepherd of the sheep... but the sheep BELONG to the Master... the shepherd is the SERVANT of the master.

    Indeed, Jesus gives thanks to YHWH for the ‘Sheep’ that YHWH, his Father, and God, gives him: the apostles.

    Paul writes concerning Jesus after Jesus is risen and in Heaven. The Father GAVE HIM power and authority to rule for ‘a thousand years’, which is why Paul states that Jesus is ‘Before all things’... and the firstborn from the dead (trinity claims Jesus did not die!!) and in doing so was the PREEMINENCE of those who are to obtain everlasting life.

    Yahweh God is eternal. He change not. So Yahweh CANNOT BECOME preeminent. To ‘Become’ implies a transition from ‘IS NOT’ to ‘IS’!
    ’...CAME TO EARTH... and ‘BECAME FLESH’? Surely, if you claim Jesus is ALMIGHTY GOD, you are ‘bringing GOD down to earth’!!! That is an abomination of GODSHIP and is completely PAGAN - as the Egyptians and the Greeks, etc, claim their ‘gods’ became humans on Earth - what you exactly state as ‘GOD-MEN’ or ‘Man-Gods’.
    To die in the flesh is for the enlivening Spirit within the body to depart from it. The spirit of all living being that are made in the image of GOD, goes BACK in a latent manner, to GOD. This is the same manner in which Jesus died as every man who dies. Trinity cannot confess to ‘Jesus-GOD’ dying so it invents a disingenuous scenario in which Jesus’ spirit was still ACTIVE AS GOD. Effectively then, Jesus DID NOT DIE! Why then does the CHURCH weep for Jesus’s DEATH and have joy at his being RAISED UP again... the memorials and celebrations are then all a farce!

    Oh, and don’t think I didn’t notice that you skipped the part about who raised to Jesus FROM THE DEAD .... oh, “he WAS NOT DEAD”, you say!
    So all the verses stating that ‘GOD raised up Jesus...’ are then false! Yes?
    I am dismayed that I am discoursing with someone who does not know the scriptures yet demands that know the scriptures.
    ‘IS NOW’... ‘GOD CHANGETH NOT’... he cannot ‘BECOME’... because ‘GOD IS’... that is the meaning of his name: YHWH; ‘I Am’!. How many times does scriptures proclaim Jesus as BECOMING something that he WAS NOT... count them?
    Are you unaware of these VITAL verses and scripts? How then are you debating scriptures - surely you should then understand why you are lacking the knowledge of the truth and are wrongfully subscribing to what others have taught you in their delusion. The things you demand I show you strike deeply at the heart of your lack of understanding. A space scientist does not embark on a mission to send a spacecraft to another heavenly body YET KNOWS NOT the physics involved!!
    It is your ‘belief’ indeed. Yet you have shown that you are merely mouthing the fallacy of trinity with little to no understanding of what you are being taught: a fallacy. Where did you gain the raise understanding that Jesus ‘CHOSE’ to ‘NOT’ know many things ... to what end? How can GOD NOT KNOW? thus nonsense is straight out of the trinitarian handbook. Does it make sense that GOD should be SCHIZOPHRENIC?

    But rather, Jesus says that everything he did was BY THE POWER OF THE FATHER; by His Holy Spirit. How can Jesus be ‘God’ yet it is his Fathers good will that Jesus performs miraculous deeds in his Father’s name.
    No. What it is, is that I am showing you the truth and you are STILL trying to fit the trinity fallacy to the truth of what you are reading from what I show you. This causes you a problem in that you WANT to believe trinity and therefore refuse the truth you are reading.
    Again, lacking knowledge and truth of the scriptures makes it easy for Trinitarians to feed you with fallacies... by illustration: I once heard a ‘teacher’ reading a passage from the Bible to his ‘church’... There was something odd about the reading but the congregation lapped it up, believing all the eloquent oratory. Later, I read the passage for myself, and the surrounding verses ... Yep! His eloquence and determination to set out a certain mindset about the passage led to him lauding a false rendering. So, I say to you:
    • “Caveat Audientis” : “Listener Beware”!
    and:
    • “Caveat Lector” : “Reader Beware”!
    God; YHWH; The Father, created all things and gave the son of his love the rulership over it.

    Adam, the first man, was ‘Son of God’ until he sinned. His ‘Sonship’ no longer exists. Another was brought up to replace him... another sinless and holy man, made like first, not of the seed of a man but from the Holy Spirit:
    • ‘For the child TO BE BORN TO YOU,’ to the Virgin Mary, ‘Shall be holy [sinless and righteous] and SHALL BE CALLED the Son of God’
    ‘Shall be’ is a future tense...

    And, Isaiah 42:1 says:
    • “Behold my SERVANT whom I approve.. I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT ON HIM... and he shall accomplish all my desires and bring salvation to the nations.”
    And, as the Holy Spirit of GOD comes down and alights on Jesus in a light flutter as of a Dove, that the Father fulfils his prophecy:
    • ‘This is my son in whom I am well pleased’
    And it is by this ‘ANOINTING’ (Col 1:19) that Jesus performs the acts depicted which, again, Jesus gives all credit to his spirit Father: God; YHWH.

    Jesus, on dying to bring salvation to the nations, (a pure and innocent blood for the sin of the first man- Col 1:20) is raised up by his father God to an IMMORTAL LIFE (being the first to be raised up - in preeminence (Col 1:18))

    And God rewards Jesus with the rulership over creation because he overcame the world and cannot be tempted by anything in it... therefore he is the perfect ruler, and ‘god’ over creation!

    And here is another fact: Jesus BECOMES ‘GOD’ over the creation... Yes! Becomes... But to be ‘GOD’ over creation is not GOD over all. That would be what trinity want you to believe... If is not so. SATAN is stated as ‘God’ but no one says he is ALMIGHTY GOD... so when it comes down to it, Trinitarians know the difference. And we know from the temptation incident that Satan was a STEWARD Angel over creation. Even he knew he would relinquish the position to a ‘Son of man’ hence his attempt to get Jesus to acquire the position WITHOUT going through the pain, suffering, humiliation, and death on a tree...
     
  9. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    A father for a human is an adult man who has sex human with a female human.

    O earth stone does not speak.

    First God of human science by products. O planet earth.

    Creation themes told by humans.

    O planets formed from being in hell burning consuming body. Angels before gods.

    God's were planets by men scientists say so. Humans.

    Humans as men or baby sons of men as father's live inside the heavens. As humans.

    My father a human.
    A father of a human baby is a human.
    Jesus just a name was said to be a baby and also a man. Names are inferred not owned.

    If you say a baby who grew to be a man who never had sex so is not father died then as humans die he died.

    If you say the title of his sacrificed death was Jesus then Jesus would mean Phi. The reason why.

    Phi does not exist it is equated by a scientist thinker. Neither phi in research or by thought conditions. Factored.

    Did science cause the sacrifice of a non man adult father life?

    Yes. Still life dies today. Any man who does not reach C 100 years of holy human life was sacrificed.
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    After the "great tribulation" (Mt 24), the judgment of the nations (Joel 2 & 3) & Jeremiah 11:3, it will be "My servant David" who will be king over the combined Judah & Ephraim/Israel (Ez 37:15-24), and the nations will go to Jerusalem to worship the "King" (Zech 14:16). The Gentiles will all grab onto a Jew to say God is with you (Zech 8:23), and become servants to Jacob/Israel(Is 14:1). The Trinity doctrine was shaped at the Council of Nicaea, which was convened by the beast with two horns like a lamb (Rev 13), who was the Roman Emperor Constantine. Anyone found with this mark of the beast will drink from the cup of God's wrath (Rev 14:10).
     
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The answer to your question is , because Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God.

    Ephesians 4:6. 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'

    Christ is the One through whom the Spirit comes. He is the Word of God.

    Since you don't believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, you have a less than perfect sacrifice, an unacceptable offering for sin. Your Jesus Christ is not perfect because he is not fully God.

    This argument is a re-run of the old Arian heresy. Athanasius upheld the orthodox position, supported by all the scriptures.
     
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  12. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I find your posts much too long to respond to as you as you jump from one point to another and include so many thoughts and subjects. I am going to focus on the one quote and point above.
    It makes perfect sense that the OT scriptures state that YHWH Alone created all things and then the NT says Jesus created all things by Himself ( Colossians 1:16) or that in the OT it is stated that there is only ONE Savior God, then the NT reveals Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior. All the same attributes of YHWH in the OT are applied to Jesus in the NT because Jesus is God. Jesus is YHWH of the OT. It was not the Father, but God the Son who interacted with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc.

    I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11


    He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him. Isaiah 59:16

    Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
    Acts 20:28

    God in the Old Testament
    I AM (Exodus 3:14–15; Isaiah 48:12)
    The Shepherd (Psalm 23:1)
    The Light (Psalm 27:1)
    The Rock (Psalm 18:2)
    Ruler of all (Isaiah 9:6)
    Judge of all nations (Joel 3:12)
    The Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16)
    God’s Word never passes away (Isaiah 40:8)
    The Sower (Jeremiah 31:27; Ezra 34:9)
    First and the Last (Isaiah 48:12)

    Jesus’ Reference to Himself
    I AM (John 8:58)
    The Shepherd (John 10:11)
    The Light (John 8:12)
    The Rock (Matthew 7:24)
    Ruler of all (Matthew 28:18)
    Judge of all (John 5:22)
    The Bridegroom (Matthew 25:1)
    Jesus’ words never pass away (Mark 13:31)
    The Sower (Matthew 13:3–9)
    First and the Last (Revelation 1:17–18)

    Is Jesus Yahweh? Is Jesus Jehovah? | GotQuestions.org
     
    #92 InChrist, May 4, 2021
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  13. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    InChrist, my posts answer to the individuals and the majority of those who view this thread. I cannot control the fact that you find what I wrote overlong for you personally to answer to. That is a failing in yourself that you do not understand what is being written in my post.

    I would advice you thus:
    • READ what I write
    • CHECK what I write
    • ANSWER to critique plus or minus what I write
    • BUT don’t tell me that I write too much for you
    Everything I write has a purpose. Do you read the Bible? Do you also say that there are too many words, sentences, paragraphs, chapters, books, themes... which are all over the place FOR YOU!

    However, it is clear why you find what I say too much for you: You cannot stomach the truth. It pains you to see the truth and would rather believe a soap opera or Hollywood blockbuster dramatisation of the Holy Scriptures. And you know what the DISCLAIMER to these presentations say, don’t you?

    No? Well, it says:
    • Some scenes have been CHANGED for artistic reasons and do as not to contravene LICENSES (paraphrased)
    What this means is that the TRUTH of the reality CANNOT be depicted by them. YES, the basic storyline is true... but the mortar that holds the blocks of the storyline together are MODIFIED or plain MADE UP:
    • A TRUE depiction is nowhere near as ‘Exciting’ or ‘Believable’ as the director, producer, scriptwriter, or editor, desires for the audience
    And, to respond to the rest of you’d post:
    You say that Jesus (The Son) could do everything that God (the Father) can do. And this meant that Jesus must be God - equal to God? Equal to the Father?

    Well, InChrist, did you not read why Jesus could do these things that ONLY GOD could do?
    • “I have stirred up one from the north, and he comes-- one from the rising sun who calls on my name. He treads on rulers as if they were mortar, as if he were a potter treading the clay. (Isaiah 41:25)
    • “Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My Chosen One in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)
    Read the verses from Isaiah 41:2? through 42:9 and see what the LORD (YHWH) says of HIMSELF:
    • “See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you."
    You CANNOT say that Jesus IS GOD but CHOSE not to know ... CHOSE NOT TO BE GOD (what does it mean to be ‘GOD’?) yet scriptures states that the things Jesus does not know are because GOD CHOSE not to reveal them to him. Emphatically:
    • The Father loves the Son and has entrusted all things to His hand.” (John 3:35)
    • “He (Jesus) said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.” (Acts 1:7)
    • “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36)
    • “but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared." (Mark 10:40)
    • “The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.” (Galatians 4:2)
    What do these verses say? God speaks of what is to come BUT Jesus says that those things are in the hands of GOD... ALONE! But if Jesus is GOD then how can the knowledge be denied to him - it is, trinity says, ONE ESSENCE!!?

    So, effectively, concerning Trinity:
    • “See, they are all false! Their deeds amount to nothing; their images are but wind and confusion.” (Isaiah 41:29)
    The list you showed: Look at it again. Every one of those things is FOLLOWING the baptism of Jesus with the Father’s HOLY SPIRIT - it is what EMPOWERED Jesus to do the incredible acts he performed among the people.

    In Isaiah 42:1, GOD FORETELLS that He would do this to His SERVANT. Why is there confusion when it occurs.

    Even JESUS CHRIST states it himself:
    • “Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;(1)
    • he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.(2) For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.(3)Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these,(4) so that you will be amazed.” (John 5:19-20)
    (1) The Son is DEPENDENT on the Father; The Father is not dependent on the Son.

    (2) First the Father does... thence the Son does likewise.

    (3) The Father SHOWS the Son what and how to do.

    (4) The Father has GREATER WORKS he had not yet shown to the Son... see (1), (2), (3), above.

    To qualify:
    • “So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me." (John 11:41-2)
    Here, Jesus prays to the Father for the ability to raise Lazarus from the dead. Jesus openly prays to the Father so that the people standing by will know that the miracle he is about to perform is from GOD, by His Father’s Holy Spirit - and NOT OF HIMSELF!!

    And, ‘Raising the dead’... Jesus was GOD to do so? Well, do you forget that Elijah AND Elisha BOTH raised the dead hundreds of years earlier? But you won’t say that Elijah and Elisha are GOD, though!
     
    #93 Soapy, May 6, 2021
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  14. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    No, not because Jesus is God but because God EMPOWERED Jesus to do so by anointing him with the Oil of Gladness.
    what is the purpose of an anointment?
    Jesus became ‘Christ’... ‘The Anointed One’​
    • “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
      • “[Caiaphas] did not say this on his own, [that Jesus should die] but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.“ Are you going to say that it was Caiaphas in Isaiah 42;1? But see that Isa 42;1 says that the SERVANT will bring the nations to be one nation (also, redemption from sin - understated in the verse!)


    I AM (Exodus 3:14–15; Isaiah 48:12)
    • ‘I am’ IS NOT the name of God. It is the MEANING of his name. Jesus did not call himself by the MEANING of God’s name else WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF BLASPHEMY: Do we not all at one time and many, “I AM ... this of that’? ‘I am’ in Aramaic or Greek is not speaking the name of God. Or do you not read in the next chapter where the man healed from being born blind answers to a jury that he is indeed the same man, saying, ‘I AM’!! Do you still say that saying ‘I am’ means you are GOD?
    The Shepherd (Psalm 23:1)
    • A shepherd is in charge of sheep, yes? But who OWNS the sheep.
    • A shepherd is a SERVANT to the MASTER.
    The Light (Psalm 27:1)
    • A light has a SOURCE. Jesus is the LIGHT - GOD is the SOURCE of the Light.
    The Rock (Psalm 18:2)
    • This is not evidence. Anyone who stands firm on a matter FOR someone else is a ROCK.
    Ruler of all (Isaiah 9:6)
    • What are you saying...! God certainly is the ruler of all. What has this verse to do with Jesus... Joseph was standing in for Pharoah in Egypt during the famine but he was told that, ‘EXCEPT for my throne, guard to be Pharoah!’. So Joseph, although ‘ruling’ Egypt, was not the ULTIMATE RULER of Egypt. Hence, once the famine was over, Joseph HANDED BACK the power and authority TO PHAROAH!! (You still don’t understand these words not where they are in the scriptures???)
    Judge of all nations (Joel 3:12)
    • ‘The Father judges no one, BUT HAS PUT ALL JUDGEMENTS into the hands of his Son’... my my... God was judge (O T) but GRANTED that judgement to be by his Son... so the SON BECAME judge! God cannot BECOME!
    The Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16)
    • What is this? God is not a bridegroom!! God is the FATHER of the Bridegroom!
    God’s Word never passes away (Isaiah 40:8)
    • Yes. True. Jesus is TAUGHT by God and so when Jesus speaks, it is the WORD OF GOD (the Logos) that he speaks. Evidently, if God’s word cannot pass away then the words of Jesus speaking God’s word, equally cannot pass away. ... Don’t try to turn the Servant of God, speaking on behalf of God, into God!
    The Sower (Jeremiah 31:27; Ezra 34:9)
    • What is the connection, here? The sower is a SERVANT to the Field OWNER. God is not a Servant!
    First and the Last (Isaiah 48:12)
    • ‘First and Last’ JUST MEANS ‘ONLY [ONE]’. An only child is ‘the first and the last’ child of his parents. Jesus Christ is ‘the first and last’ sinless, holy, and fully righteous man. And in case you speak of Adam... well, Abraham claims Isaac as ‘his only son’ yet what about Ishmael who was born before Isaac. The ‘Son’ fulfilled the covenant... Ishmael did not. Adam was dismissed as ‘Son of God’ because of his awful sin.

    Doh! See above!

    I know you cut-paste this from a website (you should reference / cite the webpage!) and you did so based on trinity fallacy belief. Try finding the ‘evidence’ in the correct context for yourself.... I guarantee you will not find it but you will try to force the meaning based on what you are taught to wrongfully believe.

    If someone is given a tool to do a piece of work, you cannot say that because he does the works perfectly then he IS THE OWNER OF TYD TOOLS with which he does the works.

    The scriptures TELLS you - JESUS tells you - GOD tells you... that Jesus was EMPOWERED BY GOD do do the WORKS OF GOD.
     
  15. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Does anyone ever get back to the fundamental reason why there was a SECOND man created by means of the Holy Spirit:
    • “You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end." (Luke 1:31-3)
    • “The angel answered [Mary] , "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)
    Break down the content of the verses and see that they speak of future events:
    • You, [Mary], will conceive and give birth to a son,
      • A son’... a human Being. Not a Spirit Being. Mary WILL BE conceiving a SINLESS and HOLY human being.
    • and you are to call him Jesus.
      • The Angel instructs Mary as to the name that YHWH says to give to the child. The name is ACTUALLY ‘YESHUA’, biblically, ‘JOSHUA’, and the MEANING IS,
        • the lord is my salvation."
      • meaning that this person WILL bring salvation to mankind (Isaiah 42:1)
    • He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.
      • Will be....’. At Jesus’ baptism, YHWH declares Jesus to himself as ‘My Son’: ‘Son of the most high’. Who is ‘the most high’?
    • The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."
      • The Most High, the Lord God, YHWH, WILL GIVE His Son the throne of David... this is an Spiritual throne over CREATION (or Humanity, if you prefer!, since it mentions Jacob’s (Israel’s) descendants (all those who become part of the covenant : believers in the One True GOD and in Jesus Christ).
    So, no mention of the child being GOD - and all things are GIVEN TO THE SON, meaning the SON DID NOT HAVE THOSE THINGS until he was GIVEN THEM.

    GOD is IMMUTABLE. He changeth not... Anything given that was not originally incepted requires a CHANGE in order TO BE ... and we can see that what Jesus BECOMES is:
    • HOLY
    • SON OF GOD
    • THE RULER OVER CREATION
    None of these involve being GOD. In fact, all of them require being HUMAN.
     
  16. ben d

    ben d Being

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    I find that a reasonable interpretation Soapy.
     
  17. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Hi Moorea944, it seems you have written what I have myself written many many times before but the obstinacy and desire for disingenuous interpretations is too strong on those called Trinitarians.

    The ‘word of God’ is just that... like you said, ‘his plan’:
    • ‘Let there be light’
    The Lord God issued his plan for creation and His Spirit enacted it... ‘His Spirit’ is not a person - why is language so difficult (I know... I know!!)

    • “In the beginning was the word”
      • In the beginning the Lord God made a plan.
    • “And the word was with God”
      • “It was GOD’s word”
    • “And the word was God
      • It was a MIGHTY plan
    And the rest follows.
    • “The word became flesh”
      • God’s word came true... How is it that certain people cannot understand the term, ‘Put on flesh’... it’s pretty obvious (unless the person is trying to misinterpret the term).
      • God ‘manifested’ HIS WORD spoken from time past:
        • God speaks of things to come. Did he not say that a saviour was to come into the world - wasn’t that HIS WORD? And suddenly it happened.
    God’s word says that the saviour would come from the SEED OF A WOMAN, which means that it would NOT be an procreation between sinful Adam’s children but a HOLY CREATION unfettered by sin. The Holy Spirit would overshadow the virgin and therefore the child to be born would be Holy, and therefore be called ‘Son of God, the most high’... And we know that ADAM, in the days until he sinned, was ‘SON OF GOD’ (Luke 3:38).... I notice Trinitarians cannot bring themselves to cite Luke 3:38, or else try to claim that it does not say what everyone sees that it says (why? I know... I know...!)

    So, yes, Moorea944, what you said was correct.

    Additionally, Trinitarians ideology does not address the issues concerning Jesus acquiring power and authority from GOD (yet they claim that Jesus IS God!!) There is a deep disconnect, drawn by desperation, in seeing the fatal flaw in claiming that ‘God received from God’ and that ‘God veiled his powers on earth so he (who is the ‘he’?) could die to save HIS CREATION’.

    Once again, trinity does not discuss the purpose of the ‘Son of God’, the SECOND and LAST ADAM. Always squirming away from answering questions put to them and ignoring clear and qualifying scriptures.

    I cannot count the number of times I have asked a trinitarian to show the beginning, middle, and end of the purpose of the scriptures in respect of mankind and its ultimate rulership by the Son of God.

    How, for instance, the notion that the Son created everything yet it is GOD that GIFTS HIM the rulership over creation... and since the word ‘FATHER’ means such as ‘He who GIVES LIFE TO; he who brings forth; he who CREATES; he who is the HEAD..’, Jesus is nowhere attributed these titles EXCEPT when he finally judges mankind and designates those whom pleases him to EVERLASTING LIFE: thereby earning the title prophesied of him: “Eternal Father”.

    And notice that the judgement is GRANTED to the Son from the Father.

    And notice that the ability to GIVE LIFE is also GRANTED to the Son from the Father.

    Howbeit that Trinitarians say that though Jesus veiled his Godship on earth, he was restored to ‘full Godship’ when he ‘raised himself from the dead - though he didn’t die - and ‘returned’ to Heaven...?

    How many discrepancies have you detected in that short sentence (hint: check the bolded words!)
     
    #97 Soapy, May 9, 2021
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  18. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    And who was it who said that Jesus, as GOD, will be seated on his fathers throne at the end of time?
    • “Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matt 19:28)
    But hear this:
    • “Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept [these] word, but only those to whom it has been given.” (Matt 19:11)

    Jesus’ words, taken out of context but nonetheless true.

    All who post truth in these forums and in these posts pray that the word of God is imbibed in them. The glory is not to the post writer but to the word of God through the spirit of God in Jesus’ name.

    And, incidentally, ‘In The Name of Jesus’ is not ‘Jesus’. It is a CLAIM that what was said or done is AS JESUS HIMSELF would have said or done:
    • In Righteousness
    • In Integrity
    • In Honesty
    • In Sincerity
    • In Selflessness
    • In Reverence TO GOD; TO THE FATHER (i.e., In Worshipfulness)
    It is common for people when (claiming) to be praying TO GOD end saying, “In Jesus’ name” without actually understanding what they are saying... it has just become ‘a thing’ to say - a period stop - like ‘Amen’.

    How many people have prayed to win the lotto “In Jesus’ name, Amen”?
     
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  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The Lord will set "My servant David" as the prince/king over "My flock" (combined Ephraim/Israel & Judah) (Ez 37:19) as the only shepherd, (Ez 34:24-25), and they will live in peace forever (Ez 37:24). After the day of the Lord (Zech 14), the nations will worship the king at Jerusalem (Zech 14:16-17) on the feast of Tabernacles. None of this has happened as of this moment. It is Judah/Jews who are fighting the nations at this time (Zech 12). The fighting of the LORD appears to be behind the door (Joel 2:3), and the valley of the judgment has yet to be fulfilled, whereas the nations are sold into slavery as recompense/judgment. Not a good time to be of Edom. (Joel 3:19) Even the "strangers" will have to pledge allegiance and serve "Jacob"/Israel (Isaiah 14:1-2)
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God is not divided. When God is in Jesus He doesn't suddenly become not God, so He is creator there also and in the Paraclete too. However there was no Jesus body at creation and no separate Jesus personality at creation.

    I believe the answer is quite simple. That does not happen and could not happen. What is obvious is that Jesus is more relatable than the Father.
     
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