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Featured Does Jesus become ruler over the created world (The God of this world)

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Soapy, Apr 28, 2021.

  1. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Trinity claims that it was Jesus who created the world (earth) and everything in it. Yet the scriptures says that it was Yahweh who created it and all within it - in fact, Yahweh says that his people should worship Him, and Him, alone - one God (as opposed to pagan worship which is worship of many Gods).

    But if Jesus created everything then why is he not called ‘Father’ (which means: ‘He that brings into being; he that brings forth; he that gives life; the head) and yet nowhere in scriptures does it say that Jesus is the ruler of the world; the Father.

    So, it is interesting that scriptures says that, at the end of time, Jesus BECOMES the Eternal Father of those whom he gives eternal life to after the judgements.

    But if we are to believe the trinity view that Jesus is one part of a tri-part ‘GOD’ - and GOD is Spirit and rules a GREATER infinite kingdom (Heaven) than the limited physical kingdom of earth - how is it that one part of the tri-part co-equal, co-powerful, co-everything GOD becomes ruler (God) over its/his own creation without the other two parts - and indeed become a LESSER ruler than his present rulership as God of all things?
     
  2. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Jesus’ Heavenly Father is like our grandfather. Yahweh was the name of the nature god of Mt Sini adopted by the Israelites during their stay there.
     
  3. ben d

    ben d Being

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    According to Revelation He gets to rule over the remainder of mankind leftover after Armageddon with an iron rod for a finite period.
     
  4. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Was Jesus the creator of what he gets to rule over after Armageddon?

    Is Jesus the Father of creation?
     
  5. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    Did he claim to be the Father?
     
  6. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Jesus does not create Armageddon, rather is the catalyst.

    God is the creator.
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Hi Soapy,
    To my understanding, Jesus occupies a unique position as mediator on earth, both fully man and fully God. When he ascends to heaven as a spiritual being, his soul (which was resurrected in a spiritual body) is one with the Spirit of the Father. As the true heir, Jesus Christ receives the authority of the Father to reign over all heaven and earth. That's why we cannot honour the Father unless we honour the Son. It's the will of the Father that the Son should be our Saviour and Redeemer.
     
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  8. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    The question was set to Ben D, who, as you can see, refrained from answering.

    As well as the OP, I’m also asking how some believers say that Jesus created everything but yet his title is not ‘Father’.

    There are many things Jesus was and was not that he said and did not say about himself. It’s left to us to discuss and conclude on such matters according to the scriptures that we both read from - consensus of evidence.
     
  9. ben d

    ben d Being

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    I beg your pardon, I explained to you that the Father is the creator (of creation)!
     
  10. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Let me get this straight. You are saying that Jesus (by the way he HAS already ascended) is to reign over BOTH Heaven and earth?!

    Can you show me scriptures that says that Jesus will reign over Heaven, because I don’t see that anywhere in prophecy nor in the book of Revelation.
     
  11. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    GINOLJC, to all.
    First thanks for the reply, second, ERROR. the BIBLE states that "JESUS" the Ordinal First created all things, (John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24). first the angels, Hebrews 1:6 "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

    now all humans, Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. "Revelation 4:9 "And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever," Revelation 4:10 "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying," Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

    all creation, heaven and earth worship the creator, "JESUS".

    PICJAG,
    101G.
     
  12. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    My bad... can you say it again as I didn’t read that.

    I’m ready to agree that the Father (Yahweh) is the creator and hence he is called ‘Father’. But many people I debate and discuss with say that Jesus created everything yet they don’t call him ‘Father’... puzzles and conundrums and total contradictions.
     
  13. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Jesus is the Son of the Father, is that not clear?
     
  14. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    I think you will find that the references refer to Yahweh.... The trinity view force-fits the idea that it is Jesus that it refers to but it is not.

    Rev 4:11 is speaking about the one seated on the throne. How is it you do not notice that Jesus (the lamb) is STANDING in front of the throne - and is not the one seated on it.

    Also, it is YAHWEH who is, was, and to come (will be). Jesus says elsewhere that he WAS DEAD BUT NOW is alive evermore.

    ‘Is, was, and Will be’ is a CONSTANT. ‘He change the not’. “For I am the LORD, I change not;”(Malachi 3:6)

    ‘WAS DEAD.... but is NOW...’ infers a CHANGE. Jesus BECOMES.
     
    #14 Soapy, Apr 28, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021
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  15. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Why are you stressing... I know that. It’s not the point of the debate. YES... Jesus is the Son of the Father... that’s not what is being debated!!!!!

    Tje question is to THOSE who believe that JESUS CREATED EVERYTHING... not to those who do not....! Please read the context of the question.
     
  16. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    ok, if that's true, Jesus standing in front of the throne, (which it is,), then you're saying that it's your, notice I said, "YOUR", Yahweh who is sitting on the throne ... correct?

    now tell us who GAVE "YOUR" Yahweh, (who is sitting on the throne), POWER, listen, Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

    ok Soapy, who GAVE "YOUR" YAHWEH POWER? please post Book, chapter, and verse of the name of anyone who GAVE "YOUR" YAHWEH POWER?

    I'll be looking for that reply.

    PICJAG,
    101G.
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I believe that Christ, the Word of God, is spoken of in Colossians 1:16. 'All things were created by him, and for him.'

    Philippians 2:11. 'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;'
     
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  18. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    Correct, for Isaiah 44:24 states that he was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF". meaning that he didn't go through anyone.

    and you're correct on Philippians 2:11, which Jesus the LORD, the Ordinal First, said in Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."
    Isaiah 45:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
    Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

    BINGO, that's God, the "LORD", Jesus in the OT, as the Ordinal First speaking.

    PICJAG,
    101G.
     
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  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Not all trinitarians are the same. There is a tendency among unitarians to dismiss them as non brothers, and I advise against that.

    On the topic of trinity both protestants and catholics share a common voyage. My advice, having had experience in both camps, is to let God have the glory by letting this struggle be put into its place. The arguments of the past were begun in anger, but even though the anger is gone the arguments have taken on a life of their own. They are pointless. Merge and commune with your fellows. That's good advice I say. Judge by fruit not by words.
     
  20. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    at this time the god of this world is satan
    3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
     
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